C203 Advent 3

[00:00:06] Speaker A: You're listening to by the well, a lectionary based podcast for preachers recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri people. Hello, everyone, I'm Fran Barber. [00:00:19] Speaker B: I'm Dorothy Lee. [00:00:20] Speaker A: And Dorothy and I are speaking together about Advent 3 this week. And in particular we'll be focusing on Zephaniah chapter 3, verses 14 to 20, and Luke chapter 3, verses 7 to 18. And this third week of Advent is traditionally known as Gaudate Sunday, which is Latin for joy. And so most appropriately, the passage from Zephaniah before us, Dorothy, is entitled A Song of Joy. [00:00:52] Speaker B: Yes. It's very much that theme of rejoice. [00:00:55] Speaker A: Yeah. And I could hear in my mind's ear Handel's Messiah as I read this. And actually before we pressed record, we went and found that and played it to ourselves. [00:01:05] Speaker B: Yes. [00:01:07] Speaker A: So Zephaniah was a prophet in the seventh century. [00:01:12] Speaker B: Yes. [00:01:13] Speaker A: B.C.E. [00:01:14] Speaker B: B.C.E. under King Josiah. And a contemporary of Jeremiah stationed in Jerusalem. [00:01:22] Speaker A: Okay. And so it's before the exile. [00:01:27] Speaker B: It's before the exile, yes. [00:01:29] Speaker A: And what we have here is a song of joy about the Lord removing the hard word and the judgments from the people. [00:01:41] Speaker B: Yes. Because a lot of Zephaniah is about judgment. And here I think Zephaniah is saying there will be renewal, there'll be restoration, that God will judge, but God will remove God's judgments. So judgment is not forever, it's to enable repentance. [00:01:59] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's part of the covenant relationship. [00:02:01] Speaker B: Almost part of the covenant. [00:02:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yes. And so clearly this passage speaks into the very important aspect of Advent that in the modern tradition we can forget which is the ultimate hope, the call from the future of God, not just the awaiting of the baby child that we do in Advent, but that this is about the restoration of all things and all that we hope for. [00:02:30] Speaker B: Yes. I think Advent has got a primary focus on the future coming of the Son of Man. And it's about God's future invading our present and transforming our present and leading us to restoration. It's not preparation. Not primarily preparation for the baby Jesus. [00:02:48] Speaker A: No, no. And it's. Well, and in the latter, that's a very human focus, whereas the former is about God's actions. Absolutely. On our behalf and God's initiative. [00:03:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And so there's a strong theme of hope, I think, through Advent for that. [00:03:03] Speaker A: Reason, and not necessarily in this passage, perhaps, but in many of the others, a truthful naming of the disaster and fraughtness of the present into which this God speaks. [00:03:16] Speaker B: Yes, yeah, absolutely. There's no denial of how bad things are. [00:03:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And that is where it hits in Advent. [00:03:23] Speaker B: Yes. [00:03:24] Speaker A: So in terms of language, in this particular passage before us, there's warrior language, sort of military stuff, as well as joyful hymn, I guess. [00:03:36] Speaker B: Yes. [00:03:37] Speaker A: What's something that you would underline in particular? [00:03:41] Speaker B: Well, I think the worry language is the triumph of joy over suffering. And so it's warrior imagery. It's not literal warrior speak. It's metaphorical language that talks about that God gives victory, that is to say, victory over suffering, victory over disaster. So renewal, restoration, that can be seen as a kind of victory, as a kind of triumph. But it's the triumph of God. It's God's triumph that God removes God's judgment. It's not really about what's going on in the human sphere, although of course it has huge implications for that. But it's about God's activity, God judging and then God removing judgment and bringing joy. [00:04:30] Speaker A: I'm noting here the language of Zion and of Israel that we come across repeatedly in the Advent readings and cognizant of the situation in the world at the moment in that part of the world and the use of, well, how we hear that language and those words like Zion. I know there's been a contribution in our uniting church around the language of Israel and how we might nuance that. Yes, given the current situation in Palestine. And then, you know, the argument saying, well, we can't be removing the identity and the specificity of Israel from a story such as this and therefore actually would be removing Jesus Jewishness from him. But I guess just how. And just using the word, the words unthinkingly now, or not unthinkingly, but without some commentary, some aware commentary around how the language lands. I'm just wondering where you. How you would respond to that. [00:05:42] Speaker B: I think it's very good to be aware of those sorts of issues. We can't make a simple simply grab scripture and apply it to today without thinking about what we're doing. And one of the things we need to be particularly aware of is context. So we're talking in Zephaniah about a very different context than we're talking about today. In fact, if we're talking, you know, a couple of generations ago in our culture where the Jewish people were actually horrifically persecuted and slaughtered, that would also be a different context to what we're in today. So I think it's good to use other language sometimes to give that awareness. We have the same problem on Good Friday where we read the John's passion story. And it's the Jews. The Jews, the Jews all the way through the opposite problem. So, you know, how do we deal with it? I think we need a number of different strategies. I would not actually want to get rid of the biblical language, especially the language of Zion. I know it's. The link with Zionism is unfortunate, but I think we can explain to people, we can perhaps sometimes use different language. We can also explain to people that, you know, we're talking in very different context. We're talking about a very small, vulnerable community back then. [00:07:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:02] Speaker B: Which doesn't have the sort of power that maybe we would see Israel having today. [00:07:07] Speaker A: Today. Yeah. And that there is also a representativeness in that disempowered state of the original context, a representativeness of the disempowered now and the outcast and so on. [00:07:19] Speaker B: And I think part of what Israel today is reacting against is the fear of that happening again. It's, you know, it's, I think, driven by a terror of being, you know, slaughtered again, of being oppressed, of being pushed out, of being alienated. That's. So I think a sensitivity to the context is always important and we need different strategies, I think, to deal with it. [00:07:48] Speaker A: And also the biblical call, or the godly call, to remember the outcast and the downtrodden and to treat the stranger well, and all of that is a call upon Israel as much as to us, in the sense now then and now. [00:08:02] Speaker B: And I think, you know, Zephaniah is useful here because elsewhere he makes it clear that God's sovereignty is not just over Israel, but over all the nations. So all nations stand under the potential of God's judgment if they're engaging in idolatry and social injustice. [00:08:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:18] Speaker B: I think that if they're idolizing power or if they're engaging in injustice, in oppression of the poor, then, in fact they do stand under God's judgment, whatever their name, whatever their. [00:08:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's something I would really emphasise in this passage if I was preaching on it in this week. [00:08:34] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:35] Speaker A: And I also. We won't move there just yet, but I'm thinking about the passage from Luke around John the Baptist. Is that, you know, the call of what we should do in our very. In different stations of life, in the light of the coming apocalypse or whatever, however they want to talk about it is actually every move in that passage is a resistance to idolatry, the idolatry of greed or acquiring too many things and so on. There's an idolatry that is preached against by John. [00:09:04] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:09:05] Speaker A: In that passage that echoes from here, echo Zephaniah. [00:09:08] Speaker B: Yeah, very much so. [00:09:11] Speaker A: Well, I like the musical poetry in this. I mean, obviously I can hear it in my mind's ear, but the singing as well. So, yeah, I'd probably play it. Play part of this from Handel's Messiah on Sunday. [00:09:25] Speaker B: Yes, I think it's a good idea. Get the choir to sing it, perhaps. [00:09:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:09:29] Speaker B: You've got the capacity. I love the way that it's this wonderful sort of outpouring of joy, but then it's, I will save the lame and gather the outcast, Change their shame into praise. That's a huge thing in the ancient world, in the shame culture, into praise and renown in all the earth. They've been publicly humiliated and shamed and now they will actually be exalted. And I think that the poor being gathered in you. God's concern for the poor, I think, is wonderful. It's their joy that Zephaniah is talking about. [00:10:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I was thinking about that language of shame in our culture too. I think we perhaps don't talk about that enough. [00:10:16] Speaker B: We're becoming more and more of a shame culture, actually. Social media is brilliant at shaming. [00:10:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And silencing and then shaming. And it does so in a variety of ways. But not least is providing a platform to people, for people to speak anonymously and therefore let fly. Absolutely. And I think that it's a very corrosive human. I want to say emotion, but it's more than an emotion. I don't know, emotion for now. It's a very corrosive human emotion. And any way in which the tradition can speak into that, I think is really powerful and would be. And he's a unique voice against it. [00:11:04] Speaker B: And I think, you know, overall, what Zephaniah is saying is that God, in God's dealings with us, is essentially life giving. Even God's judgment has its final intention. Life. And all of this is life giving. And that's the challenge for us as well, how to be with one another in a way that is actually life giving, even when we have to say very hard things and when we have to bring that prophetic voice to bear on things that are going on in the world. Our ultimate aim is to promote life. Life for everybody, actually, but particularly, of course, for those who've been so damaged, so hurt, so shamed, so humiliated, so oppressed. [00:11:50] Speaker A: And that line about how the Lord rejoices over us with gladness, that's ringing in my Ear, just because if that is what we truly believe to be the case, then those difficult moments and encounters, our view of them shifts. If the other is held in God's rejoicing and gladness and I. And we are. So it's sort of. It's a more positive way of remembering we're forgiven sinners. [00:12:19] Speaker B: Yes, that's right. [00:12:20] Speaker A: You know, we begin from the same gracious point in God's eyes. So from there let's go on. [00:12:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's God's joy that we're talking about God sharing God's joy with us, which is. [00:12:32] Speaker A: That is just so radical when you think about perhaps more, and perhaps it's caricatured, but pagan notions of God, where you provide sacrifice and you appease. [00:12:43] Speaker B: Yes. [00:12:43] Speaker A: You know, and you seek to sort of tame or fearfully step around to be then declared that God is rejoicing in you. Is just incredible message. [00:12:57] Speaker B: Yes, it is an incredible message. And it's actually. I know you don't want to go there just yet, but it is actually very Lucan too. You know, when you think about the three parables in Luke 15, the three lost parables, the lost sheep, the lost coin, the lost son, they're all about God's joy entering into God's joy, the joy of heaven. And it's that same theme of God's joy. [00:13:19] Speaker A: And it's God's joy there in the most modest, apparently modest of situations, ordinary occasions. [00:13:29] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. [00:13:30] Speaker A: Well, let's move, shall we then to our reading from Luke, which is chapter three, verses seven to 18. So last week in your conversation with Robyn, the first part of this passage up to verse six was your focus. When we get the incredibly clear political and historical context for the coming of John Luke, the historian in the. In the ancient sense, orienting us splendidly that this in, you know, utterly life changing event is occurring in the midst of the messy and chaotic reality of human existence as well as the cosmos. [00:14:21] Speaker B: Yes. [00:14:22] Speaker A: So the John said to the crowds out to be baptized by him, you brood of vipers, etc. So this is the Sunday for joy, Dorothy. But this passage may give us pause initially. [00:14:44] Speaker B: But it's no real different with Zephaniah too, if we read Zephaniah in his own context, because this is ultimately about joy. I mean, John the Baptist doesn't strike me as the most joyful person. I don't know that he would have been a lot of fun to hang out with. Whereas we're quite clear that Jesus was. [00:15:04] Speaker A: On the whole. [00:15:05] Speaker B: On the whole, yes. But I think John, I mean, what he does is to start by talking to those who are privileged, to those who possess the knowledge and the power, and they're the ones that John is having a go at. So there is always that joy is never separate from judgment. There's always the possibility of God's judgment against those who think that they're privileged because of their ancestry, because of their power, their money, their privilege, whatever, who think that they have a special place with other people or that they have a special place with God. They are very dangerous people. [00:15:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:46] Speaker B: And so. And here John is using a passage. Sorry, Luke is using a passage about John the Baptist that's also found in Matthew's Gospel in slightly different form. And it's saying that God actually can raise up children to Abraham. And of course, it's a reference for Luke that points forward to the Gentiles. And really it's an attack on privilege. So the joy comes with the repentance. It comes from turning away from this sense that we are in some way privileged, that we are some way God owes us or society owes us, or the world owes us a living. Luke doesn't have any time for that. It's the focus is on those who are poor. And in the next part, where we get the three groups, the crowd, saying, what do we do? This is unique to Luke. This is not in any of the other gospels. It's really fascinating if you compare Mark and Matthew and Luke here. In fact, we find that these sections are unique to Luke's gospel. So Luke has added these things for a very special reason, and that is to say, to show his understanding of what repentance actually means. Repentance is not sitting in a corner and saying, woe is me, I have sinned and I a terrible person. Nobody's interested in that. In the biblical world, repentance means turning away. It means transformation. It means a whole new way of life in which we treat other people completely differently because of the way that God has treated us. So. [00:17:32] Speaker A: The what then should we do? Is a. I mean, it's three times, which is very biblical. It's a very modern question for an activist church, I will say. So I was thinking about how one would preach this in that context so as not to compound that. Yes, busy activism, but that's a separate conversation. [00:17:58] Speaker B: It would depend. Once again, it'll depend on your context. [00:18:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:18:01] Speaker B: I mean, in the Anglican Church, we have lots of parishes that are quite happy with the way they are and don't want to change at all. [00:18:07] Speaker A: Yes. [00:18:08] Speaker B: So, you know. So a little bit of activism might be actually good. Peppering them up a bit. [00:18:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:18:14] Speaker B: Might have a place, but. But where there's activism, I think we need to actually step back and say, well, what are we talking about? We're talking about the reign of God. [00:18:22] Speaker A: About God's reign and acting in such a way that the rain is here. Because it is here. [00:18:27] Speaker B: Yes, it is here. [00:18:28] Speaker A: Living into it. [00:18:29] Speaker B: Living into it. [00:18:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:18:31] Speaker B: And living out of that divine sovereignty. If you're allowed to talk about divine sovereignty these days. I hope we still can. [00:18:39] Speaker A: Yes, I hope we can. I mean, it is a world that. Was it Charles Taylor or Andrew Root? I get confused. But how we've evacuated transcendence. [00:18:49] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. [00:18:51] Speaker A: And it is. And that is a stumbling block for people like us to speak about this good news, in a sense, because you've got that unfamiliarity with any divine talk. [00:19:08] Speaker B: Yes, I do, in a lot of quarters. And one of the things that I think particularly activism is prone to, and activism is wonderful in so many ways and is so much commended by Luke, and yet Luke sets it all in the context of praise. It's in the context of worship. If we read the first two chapters, they're just overflowing with praise and worship. So the first, really, responsibility, I think, of the church, a community of believers, is worship. It's worshiping God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And then from that, our activism comes. So it doesn't just come out of nowhere. [00:19:47] Speaker A: And as we see here, it is not worship of money or exhorting. So this is all about money. [00:19:55] Speaker B: It is about money. And Luke's got a thing about money. Blessed are you who are poor. [00:20:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:20:02] Speaker B: You know, and he talks about giving up our possessions, you know, and that's a feature of. And it's a result for Luke, it's not because God is saying, you must do this. If we want to enter into joy, it means letting go. It means sharing. It means making sure that nobody is outside that providence, that goodness, that everybody is incorporated into it, and that we are free. We're free of possessions. We're free, literally, of possessions. We're free, metaphorically, of possessions. And we're free to rejoice and to receive God's joy. [00:20:42] Speaker A: So the crowds here are a bit nonplussed. I think they're feeling the joy, perhaps, but then they're saying, who is this? And I just love the phrase they were questioning in their hearts concerning John. That heart language is obviously deliberate. It's an interesting turn of phrase yes, yes. Whether he might be the Messiah. And then we get the phrase, familiar to us, that John's setting them. Right, I baptize you with water, but the one more powerful than I is coming. And then we come into really quite an apocalyptic phraseology. [00:21:16] Speaker B: Yes, it is very apocalyptic, but it's. Because it's harvest. [00:21:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's fire and refinement. [00:21:24] Speaker B: It's fire and refinement. But again, it's ingathering. It's ingathering. And it's not unlike Zephaniah about gathering in. So there's a purifying, if we can use. I know that there's problems sometimes in the language of purify. Refining. [00:21:40] Speaker A: Yeah, refining. [00:21:43] Speaker B: And that's really important. There is always that element of judgment there, but it's essentially about being gathered into God's joy and therefore God's salvation. [00:21:53] Speaker A: And so, therefore, verse 18, it is good news to the people. Because on a superficial reading, it doesn't look in that last part at all. [00:22:00] Speaker B: No. And that's why I think we need to bring that out, that this is actually joyful. This is salvation language that we're talking about. We're talking about the harvest being gathered in and, yes, some refining. There needs to be a lot of refining done in our world. But God will bring about the refining, and God's judgment will end and will offer salvation. All flesh shall see the salvation of God, as Luke quotes. [00:22:29] Speaker A: And the coming of the Christ is the sign of this end. [00:22:32] Speaker B: It is, actually. Yes. Yeah, that's right. [00:22:35] Speaker A: Because, I mean, the category of apocalyptic can more popularly perhaps be understood as sort of the ending of everything, you know. [00:22:46] Speaker B: Yes, but it's not. [00:22:47] Speaker A: It's the revelation of that coming. And part of that revelation is the exposing of political and social injustice and the setting of it. Aright. [00:22:59] Speaker B: Yes. And that is part of the revelation of who Jesus Christ actually is, because Jesus, I think, in the Gospels is both human and divine, and so Jesus Christ is at the center of this. [00:23:15] Speaker A: Okay, are there any last things you might want to say about both these passages for this week that we haven't covered, Dorothy? [00:23:28] Speaker B: Oh, just to add that in verse 18, he proclaims the good news to the people. This is good news. John is bringing good news. And it may be a little challenging, but it's actually good news that we hear and reminds me of something that I think I've encountered in my limited knowledge of Ignatian spirituality, and that is that when God leads you, God leads you into an open space. It might be a space that Challenges you. But it's open, it's sun, sun filled space as opposed to being led into a tight corner where you're. Where it's dark and gloomy and you feel trapped. God always leads us into an open spaces that may challenge us, but ultimately a life giving and joyful and good news. And that I think is taken from Luke is a real insight of Luke's. [00:24:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And a joyful pause in Advent from the first couple of weeks. [00:24:32] Speaker B: Yes. [00:24:32] Speaker A: And now we do get going in the joy next week too. [00:24:36] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. But I think also, you know, a glance over at Philippians. [00:24:41] Speaker A: Oh, yes. [00:24:42] Speaker B: Where joy becomes the sort of antidote to anxiety and joy is closely linked to thanksgiving and peace. Peace guarding us. So it's not just happiness, it's actually a really profound joy that protects us, that gives us peace, that enables us to give thanks. [00:25:03] Speaker A: I was reading Nick Cave's red hand files yesterday. I get the emails and I don't always go in, but he has a section on joy where people have contributed their experience of joy in the world. And I mean I won't go through them all there. There's some. Someone's just put golf and then someone else has put the profound love and wholeness they see in their spouse's face when they smile, having relayed, you know, a litany of tragedy actually that has happened to this person in their life. But anyway, it's a really worth a visit to the red hand files for delving into the perilous place of the human. Yes. And the tenacious way in which by and large, we do find a joy at some point. Yes, most of the time. [00:26:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that, you know, I know that a kind of New Agey sort of spirituality emphasizes this, but I think they're right about this Thanksgiving. Now, I'm not quite sure who they're necessarily giving thanks to, but the notion of being a thankful person, a person of gratitude, especially to God, but also to all of those around us, I think that is actually a source of joy where we can actually identify the joy that is already in our lives, even in our struggles. [00:26:34] Speaker A: Yeah. In 2 Corinthians, Paul has quite a long section on gratitude. [00:26:38] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:39] Speaker A: And that it is towards another is towards God. [00:26:43] Speaker B: And it's a profoundly Jewish and Christian category. [00:26:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Where I go to church, we begin the service each evening with. For what are we grateful? [00:26:54] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:54] Speaker A: And then a naming, you know, people naming. And then the prayers continue. [00:26:58] Speaker B: Yeah, that's lovely actually. Yes. [00:27:00] Speaker A: Okay. Thanks for the conversation. By the well is brought to you by Pilgrim Theological College and the Uniting Church in Australia. It's produced by Adrian Jackson. Thanks for listening.