C226 Pentecost

[00:00:05] Speaker A: You're listening to by the well, a lectionary based podcast for preachers recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri people. Hello, everyone, I'm Robyn Whittaker, and this is the episode for Pentecost Sunday. Pentecost, of course, being the third of the great Christian festivals in the year after Easter and Christmas. And we have a lot of lectionary choices today. The famous acts 2, 1, 21. We are also going to try and briefly cover Genesis 11, 1:9, Psalm 104, 24, 34, Romans 8, 14, 17, and John chapter 14, 8, 17. So this might be a slightly longer than normal episode and we're going to try and draw together some of the sort of theological themes of the Spirit as we work work across all those readings. And the we here today is my colleague, Daniel Siombing. Daniel is a new faculty member here at Pilgrim where he teaches theology. So welcome, Daniel. [00:01:12] Speaker B: Thank you, Robin. [00:01:13] Speaker A: Daniel, just tell people a little bit about yourself for people who don't know you. [00:01:18] Speaker B: So I'm Daniel. I just started my new role here as a lecturer in systematic theology at Pilgrim Theological College. I'm a migrant from Indonesia, moved here a few years ago, so. And I'm also a minister in the United Church. [00:01:35] Speaker A: Great. And where do you preach when you preach these days, apart from here at the theological college? [00:01:41] Speaker B: I regularly preach at Caulfield Indonesian uniting Church and St. Andrew Scott. In a uniting church? [00:01:47] Speaker A: Yep. And often in Indonesian. Right? [00:01:50] Speaker B: Yeah, in Indonesia. [00:01:52] Speaker A: So we have a multilingual person in our midst. Great. Thank you for being here, Daniel. Let's get into Acts chapter two, and I might give a little bit of context and. And then we'll explore this text. This scene imagined here is of Jews from all around the region and quite far away who've come to Jerusalem for the festival of Shavuot, which is a kind of a harvest festival and one of the big three pilgrimage festivals in the Jewish calend, the others being Passover and Sukkot. And in the Jewish tradition at the time, it was expected that males would go to Jerusalem and make sacrifices as part of, you know, celebrating Shavuot. And. And still today, some, some Jews would do that or celebrate locally in their own way. And of course, so we've got some religious uniformity, but a scene of great diversity of people with different cultural, ethnic practices and languages who are gathered here on this day of Pentecost. And then of course, we meet this image of the Spirit. So, Daniel, what do you notice about this passage or what strikes you? [00:03:10] Speaker B: Well, it's a great scene. And to see that, well, Pentecost, we often associate it with the birthday of the church. And it's wonderful to see that at the birthday of the church, there were people coming from different parts of the world. There is diversity and people can hear the message of the Gospel in their own native languages. Which makes me curious, Robin, actually, what is this native language about? Is it just people can hear and understand it in their own Jewish accents with different accents, or completely different language? [00:03:47] Speaker A: I think it is completely different language. The Greek term for language is glossa, and that can mean speech and other vague things, but it often means language. And most New Testament scholars would say this is not about speaking in tongues or some sort of spiritual language. This is actually the gift of being able to speak in other people's languages so that the things that can divide us, like language, are overcome in the Holy Spirit. So it's a kind of a very hopeful, lofty vision because we know language can often still divide us. It's hard to communicate across difference of language. But, yeah, I think that's what's going on here. Which wouldn't that be a great gift to have to just be able to speak multiple languages? [00:04:33] Speaker B: Oh. As a migrant, I really wish this. This gift. This happened to me. [00:04:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, the other thing that always strikes me here, and we're going to get different kind of snapshots of the Spirit in these readings today, this spirit is quite violent. I mean, it's described as a violent wind that rushes in and then is seen as kind of tongues of fire. It's not a gentle dove. I don't know what you make of this image of the Spirit or what you think is. Yeah. Being captured here theologically. [00:05:11] Speaker B: Yeah. But wind and fire, these are all metaphors that not just in this passage, but in other passages in the Bible as well. I used to portray the Spirit. For me, it's just interesting that it shows how closely connected the Spirit is to creation. Yeah. So the use of metaphors like wind, fire, and also in other parts of the Bible, So something like energy, power and other imagery. [00:05:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Which we're going to get picked up in the sum very clearly. The other thing I note here, and this feels very Protestant to me, although that's obviously an inappropriate term to use for the first century Jesus movement, is where the passage goes, where Peter stands up to address the crowd in verse 14, and he's quoting the prophet Joel. And, you know, in. In doing so, he's reminding people that there is a connection to The Old Testament to the Jewish tradition that the. The Spirit was promised. But of course, the Spirit is, as you've just said, with creation. The Spirit is already there in the Old Testament. So we need to be really careful. We're not saying, oh, the Spirit was given here as if it's this brand new thing. But perhaps what is new is that the Spirit is now given almost indiscriminately. I don't. I don't know if you agree with that, but it seems to me like, you know, Jesus was anointed with the Spirit. We get prophets anointed with the Spirit, like particular people in the Bible who. For whom this. The Spirit is a sign of their. Of a particular role or calling. But now we seem to have this expanse of kind of giving of the Spirit to everyone. It reminds me of the phrase the priesthood of all believers. Everyone gets the Spirit because everyone is engaged in the work of prophesying, seeing visions, witnessing to God. Does that fit with what you think theologically, the Spirit does, or. [00:07:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there is this popular idea that the Old Testament is the period of God the Father, and. [00:07:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:32] Speaker B: The Gospels is the period for Jesus the Son, and from the Book of Acts to the next books in the New Testament, it's the period of the Holy Spirit until now, which I don't think doesn't do justice to the Bible as a whole, because we can see Even in Genesis 1, the Spirit is working there closely in the process of creation. [00:07:55] Speaker A: Yeah, right at the very beginning. Yep. [00:07:57] Speaker B: But on the other hand, theologically speaking, if we look at the passage from Joel here, we can see that the Spirit is also closely connected with eschatology. [00:08:08] Speaker A: Yes. [00:08:09] Speaker B: So in systematic theological discussion, that has been claimed about the neglection of the Spirit, and we might talk about it later, why it might, what it has. [00:08:20] Speaker A: Happened, why we've neglected the Spirit. Yeah, yeah, definitely. But, yeah, this language of in the last days. So there's also, I think for this author, Luke, there's very clearly a sense that this pouring out of the Spirit in a. In a generous and expansive kind of way is a symbol of something new. Because we're now in the last days. Yeah. [00:08:42] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:42] Speaker A: So we might circle back to that. Anything else you want to say about Acts before we move on? [00:08:48] Speaker B: I think that's it. [00:08:49] Speaker A: Okay, let's go to Genesis 11. Next foreign. This is the Tower of Babel story. And I wanted to just talk about this very briefly because sometimes people see the Tower of B, the Pentecost story, in Acts 2, as the fixing of the Tower of Babel. This idea that it, you know, Genesis 11 imagines everyone having one language. They try and build a tower. They're becoming a bit lofty and godlike and, and almost that the dispersal of the people with different languages as a punishment by God, I think that can be really problematic. And in fact, what we're seeing in Acts 2 is that diversity of culture and language is a gift of God. So we need to be really careful. We don't set up this kind of false distinction or these antithesis in these two texts. But I think if. One way, if you want to talk about the Genesis 11 text to bring in, is that. That I think does speak to the contemporary church particularly, is that in Genesis 11 we have an image of. Of kind of uniformity, wanting to build a tower. So wanting to kind of bed down in one place, you know, with one language, one identity, building this one great big tower that's a symbol of their own, I don't know, importance, perhaps. It's sounding a little bit like the colonial or institutional church in some places. And so the sending out here could actually be read as a very similar sending out that we get in Acts 2, which was the. Is the movement of God to say, go out, fill the earth, be fruitful, multiply. It's the creation stuff again. But also this idea that we get in the New Testament that you're called to be witnesses and to go out and preach the gospel wherever you are, in whatever language you speak in. So again, it's pointing us outwards rather than inwards, which I think could be a helpful thing to put alongside Acts two. And, and, and in its context, sets up for the story of Abraham, that we'll talk about a specific man and a specific family called to be a blessing who is going to wander all over the place. And, and it's, you know, not actually about, again, uniformity. I don't know if you want to add anything to that, Daniel. [00:11:17] Speaker B: Not much, but. But I think it's very clear that even when in the lectionary we see the passage from Genesis 11 is paired with X2. [00:11:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it. [00:11:31] Speaker B: It resonates with that popular idea that X2 is the answer to Genesis 11. And we need to be mindful, I think, with the risk of looking at that way, so that it doesn't justify the uniformity of culture or language. [00:11:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Maybe while we're in the Old Testament, we'll talk about Psalm 104. Daniel, what do you want to say about the Psalm? There's a lot here It's a beautiful psalm. What do you think is important to think about as we read Psalm 104? [00:12:09] Speaker B: Well, we can see it's about doxology, about praising God. So, oh, Lord, how manifold are your works. In wisdom you have made them all. And it begins in verse one, which is not in our reading, but in verse one, it's also about praising God, and it ends up with praising God as well. Verse 33. I will sing to the Lord as long as I live. I will sing praise to my God while I have being. So it's doxological. And I found a quotation that is interesting for me from Walter Brueggemann, an Old Testament scholar who says that creationism misses the point because creation as biblical theme is doxological rather than explanatory. [00:12:57] Speaker A: Great. I love that quote. Unpack that a bit for our listeners. What does it mean? Creationism here is, of course, this idea that we're almost defending creation in scientific terms and setting it against science. So what does it mean to say it's doxological, not explanatory? Just unpack that a bit for us. [00:13:18] Speaker B: Yeah. So probably, probably instead of having a mindset that when we talk about creation in the Bible, so the instinct would be to defend the story of creation against modern science. So instead of that, let's focus on how the Bible talks about creation. When we look at creation, it leads us to praise. Praise. [00:13:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I'm always. You know, it never hurts to also remind people that we think we have, like one or two creation stories in Genesis. But in fact, there are many points in the Bible that come back and kind of retell creation here in this poetic kind of narrative. And I do, you know, for Pentecost in particular, we might be attentive to verse 30, where it talks about God sending forth God's spirit. God's ruach here is the language and renewing the earth as a creative act. So again, if we think of this as a snapshot of the Spirit here, the spirit is a creative force. It's a force for renewal. So in Acts, if we've got a violent wind that helps people prophesy and dream dreams and have visions here, a slightly different kind of emphasis to the Spirit that we could put alongside and one that we respond to with praise. So. Yeah. [00:14:52] Speaker B: And again, the close connection of the spirit with creation. [00:14:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Which we're gonna, I think, see almost throughout these. These readings. If you'd like to know more about by the well or any of Our hosts, please visit bythewell.com to au. So do you want to do Romans or John next? [00:15:24] Speaker B: It's up to you. [00:15:25] Speaker A: Okay, maybe Romans. We'll end with the gospel. So Romans 8, 14 to 17. And it's only a few verses, but they're dense, as Paul's writing tends to be. And we're in the middle of a whole section of Romans here with, well, just a lot of wonderful things about the Spirit and contrasting spirit and flesh and talking about the role of the spirit in various ways. But the lectionary has given us just these few verses and which moves from the image in verse 12 and 13 from spirit and flesh. So flesh being associated here with kind of earthly, material flesh that will ultimately die versus the Spirit that brings life. And then we pick up here, those led by the Spirit of God are children of God. So we're moving into a different kind of metaphor, this familial language of child and father. And instead of a spirit of slavery, this contrast between. We're not servants or slaves of God, even though Paul will use that language for himself, but we. The spirit of adoption, we've been adopted as children of God, and we get this. This. It's really quoting Jesus. We cry, abba, Father language, Jesus. And Abba is just the Aramaic for father. Yeah. So a lot here we could play with. What do you notice about the Spirit and the theology here, Daniel? [00:16:58] Speaker B: It's interesting to me, the contrast between the spirit of slavery and the spirit of adoption. And the spirit of slavery is the one who brought us into fear. [00:17:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And. [00:17:09] Speaker B: But the spirit of adoption, we are children of God. [00:17:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:12] Speaker B: That's very good to hear. [00:17:14] Speaker A: It is. It is. And you could really lean into that. Like, I like that you equate slavery with fear. And. And you could even add to that, like, domination. Right. Control. [00:17:24] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:25] Speaker A: Whereas to be children is, in the best version of it, to be loved, to be secure, to know you have a home. Like. Yeah, that's good news right there. [00:17:38] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:39] Speaker B: And we can cry abba, father. [00:17:42] Speaker A: Yep. [00:17:44] Speaker B: And it also points out to suffering here. [00:17:47] Speaker A: Yes. What do we do with that? Yeah. [00:17:50] Speaker B: So there is suffering implied here. I think it's in relationship to the spirit of slavery that brings fear to us. [00:18:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And a promise that even if we do, you know, we've got to remember at the time Paul writes this, Christians are being not necessarily systematically persecuted, but there is some suffering for those who've chosen to follow Jesus, sometimes in the form of simply being perhaps kicked out of your family or, you know, poverty or that there are some costs to following Jesus, but this promise that you'll also be glorified with him. So there is this. You know, we. We share the fullness of Jesus experience as God's son as much as we can as humans. And that might include suffering, but also the glory. Also the intimacy and the. Yeah. [00:18:44] Speaker B: And there is. I don't know. In the New Testament scholarship, I think there is a discussion about Paul and the Roman Empire and even how the episode of Romans speaks against the Roman Empire. And I think this is one of the passageways where you can see a justification for that kind of reading. [00:19:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:19:08] Speaker B: The suffering and then the glory. So in 1985, there was a Jewish scholar, Jacob Taupes, who said that when he read the episode to Romans as a. As a Jew, he sees Paul as a Jewish radical who declared a war against the Roman Empire. [00:19:31] Speaker A: Oh, amazing. [00:19:33] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think there is possible reading that this is the spirit of slavery, and the suffering refers to what's coming from the empire. [00:19:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:45] Speaker B: And the spirit of God is with us. [00:19:47] Speaker A: Yeah. So painting that contrast between God's way and the way of the state, and. [00:19:54] Speaker B: Also with us, leading to the glory with Him. So the liberation. [00:19:59] Speaker A: Yeah. I also find verse 16 very helpful. And it's a reminder almost, maybe takes us back to Acts 2, that when the Spirit comes upon us, there's a sense that we. We bear the whole. The Holy Spirit is with us. Right. So it's that very spirit bearing witness with our spirit. Now, we might wonder what our spirit is, but there's a sense that our spirit is our. Our innermost instinct or something, but that our Spirit can be joined. So again, it's a. It's a symbol of such unity that the Holy Spirit and our Spirit together can be part of what recognizes our. Our status as children of God. And, I mean, that invites for me all sorts of pastoral and kind of discipleship questions about how do we live in a way where our Spirit is aligned with the Holy Spirit, and how do we recognize when we're aligned? Like, how. How do we know in ourselves when we're living in the way God intended, you know, and. And not at war with the Holy Spirit. And. And perhaps one way is we are assured of our sense of being God's children. We have that intimacy. Yeah. [00:21:19] Speaker B: And maybe while we are talking about that, I think it's also good to think about how people from the global south, which make two thirds or more of Christians these days, they live in the cultural environment where spirit talk is very real and Vibrant. [00:21:38] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, yeah. [00:21:40] Speaker B: So talk about the Spirit and our spirit. [00:21:43] Speaker A: And the Spirit. The world is very spirit. [00:21:45] Speaker B: Yes. [00:21:46] Speaker A: Full of spirits. Yeah. [00:21:47] Speaker B: The Spirit of slavery. [00:21:48] Speaker A: Yes. [00:21:49] Speaker B: But also the Holy Spirit. [00:21:51] Speaker A: Yeah. So this would be very familiar or not strange language for many, many Christians. I think those of us in the west can sometimes feel a little uncomfortable with all this. I don't know. And I've certainly found preaching and uniting churches that are mostly Anglo people can be a bit nervous about the Spirit, I think, and maybe they associate it with things they see on TV of people being, you know, slain in the Spirit or, you know, they associate it with a certain type of Pentecostalism. But I think if we don't, you know, reclaim for ourselves this sense of the Spirit being in our midst in these very personal, intimate ways, we're really missing out on in some ways the primary way we know God after Jesus ascended. Right. I mean, we're in that, you know, Ascension week was the other week that this is got Jesus gift is the giving of the Spirit so that we can continue in relationship. But do you want to say anything else about the Global south where you. I mean, in your own experience, Daniel, as a. As a migrant and how, how have you noticed the difference in communities and the way people talk about the Spirit or. [00:23:08] Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah, definitely. The Spirit talk is very real and vibrant. So that's part of our daily language. But I also want to say that the critical inquiry about how the Spirit works, where does the Spirit work? What kind of spirit should we identify with? The Spirit of God? Which one is the Spirit of slavery, which one is the spirit of adoption, I think is also important because how easily talks about the Spirit, even in the church can also be very abusive. [00:23:41] Speaker A: Yes, so. And manipulative. Yes. Yeah. Yep, yep. So that discernment of what is God's Spirit and what might be, I don't know, something else, whatever. Yeah. [00:23:53] Speaker B: So we should talk more about the Spirit. [00:23:55] Speaker A: Yes. So that we can actually. And of course, there's lots and. And the Pentecost season gives us a chance to do this, looking ahead. But you know, Paul in other places will talk about things like fruits of the Spirit. So there are ways of assessing whether somebody's action and behavior is actually in keeping with the Spirit of God versus perhaps some other Spirit when we're going to get to John in a moment where there's language of spirit, of truth. So for me, one of the key differences in the New Testament between the things that are of God and the things that are of evil is Truth. Because the dominant image of, you know, whether it's language of Antichrist or of evil, is that it's deceptive. [00:24:39] Speaker B: Yes. [00:24:40] Speaker A: And lying. Yeah. So let's go to John 14. So the lectionary gives us John 14, verses 8 to 17. So a decent chunk of text here. And Jesus has been in this section of John sort of offering some hard teachings in a way, in the way that Jesus does in John's Gospel. We've had the commandment to love one another. In chapter 13 that we've heard recently in the lectionary, we've had questions about where Jesus is going and a reference to Peter's denial. And then in chapter 14, we've started with this lovely image that we often know from funeral services of, you know, Jesus saying, I'm going, you know, in my Father's house, there's many dwelling places I go to prepare a place for you. So we are in this. We use the word eschatological before where we are, in a sense, looking, looking forward. Jesus is talking about where he's going and can we go with him and. And what that will look like. And so 148 begins with Philip asking him a question about, you know, show us the Father will be satisfied, which we might want to pause and chuckle over, because I don't think we are satisfied. I think. I don't know. And. And this question, I mean, really a discussion around, why are you asking to show us the Father? And then Jesus will ultimately point towards the Spirit as the thing that is offered. Instead, I think is the general flow of the. You've asked to see the Father, but in fact, I'm going to give you a. An advocate, a paraclete, that. That's how you'll know the Father. So lots of trinitarian stuff going on. Daniel, what do you want to say about this passage? [00:26:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I want to highlight verse 16, and I will ask the Father and he will give you another advocate to be with you forever. [00:26:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:49] Speaker B: For me, as somebody who teach systematic theology, so this is a crucial vest. I don't know how familiar the. The audience are about the filioque clause. [00:27:05] Speaker A: So this is this clause in the Nicene Creed. Daniel, I feel like, is giving me a theology test right now of what I can remember from my theology lectures that the Spirit. What's the phrase, Daniel, remind us so at filioque is. [00:27:19] Speaker B: And the sun. [00:27:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:21] Speaker B: So this is the clause that led to the division of the church in. [00:27:27] Speaker A: 1054, that the Spirit comes from the Father and the. And the Son. Yep, that Addition of just the Father. Yep. [00:27:35] Speaker B: So the Western tradition unilaterally made that addition. [00:27:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:40] Speaker B: So that the Spirit comes not just from the Father, but also from the. [00:27:45] Speaker A: Son against the Orthodox. Is that the division Orthodox and. [00:27:49] Speaker B: Yes, the Eastern Orthodox tradition. And for the Eastern Orthodox tradition, there has been an argument that because of this additional clause in the Western tradition, that's one of the reasons why we have a slow development of the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. So Pneumatology, the doctrine of the Holy Spirit hasn't been discussed much because that clause has made sense, that the Spirit is somewhat subordinated to the Son. So we see Christology, Jesus Christ, in discussions about church, about the last things, about salvation, but not so much about. [00:28:35] Speaker A: The Spirit, less about the Spirit. Yeah. Yes. And that's probably a fair critique. Right. And in a lot of Western churches. Now, is it fair to say that many have dropped the. And the sun to be ecumenical, or do you have a sense of. I mean, maybe. Well, for listeners, go have a look at what your church does. Yeah. What does the Uniting Church do? [00:28:57] Speaker B: But for the uniting Church, in 1985, there was a report about the deletion of the phrase and the sun for ecumenical reasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. First of all, because it was a unilateral decision by the Western tradition. But also understanding the criticism from the Eastern Orthodox tradition. [00:29:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:20] Speaker B: But by criticizing the addition of the et filioque clause, it's important also to say that it's not heretical. No, it's not heretical because we also see in the same Gospel. [00:29:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:36] Speaker B: In John's gospel in 1607, and then John 20, 21, 22, when Jesus surprised his disciples after his resurrection, he also said, I will send the Holy Spirit to you. And Also in John 20, receive the Holy Spirit. So there has been arguments from the other side as well. [00:29:57] Speaker A: Yes. And like many things in theology, when you go to the Bible and like these images of the Spirit, you can actually find a diversity of ways of talking about these things. And so it can be hard to construct an absolutely fixed theology because the very same gospel will talk about the Spirit in different ways. But, yeah, here it's very much the. I mean, I agree. And later in John, and I think even the way John talks about Jesus, death on the cross with water and blood coming out of his side, all images for the Spirit literally pouring out of Jesus at the end. But here we have a very clear statement that is, it is the Father that gives the Paraclete, the advocate, which is John's word for the Holy Spirit. So we might just want to say this word. Paracletos is a word that means something like mediator, helper, comforter, someone who advocates for you. So again, we're getting a different sort of understanding of the spirit here. We've had violent rushing wind and flames of fire that help you prophesy and dream dreams. We've had the Spirit in creation that renews. We've had these different images. You know, that the spirit of adoption language in, in Paul. And hear the sense of the Spirit as a. As a paraclete, as a intercessor or helper or comforter. [00:31:24] Speaker B: And also, it's important if we look at the optional verses. [00:31:29] Speaker A: Yes. [00:31:29] Speaker B: 25 to 27. [00:31:31] Speaker A: Yep. [00:31:31] Speaker B: The role here is to remind us of Jesus teachings. [00:31:35] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, that's right. [00:31:38] Speaker B: So it's not making something different. Very different from what Jesus thought. [00:31:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is. I mean, to go back to your comment before Daniel about needing to talk about the Spirit to be able to critically evaluate what is of the Spirit and what isn't. This is another way of talking about it. If, if the Spirit only teaches what Jesus taught, then it should never be something antithetical to that. Right. Yeah. And there is this word truth here I referred to before in verse 17, the spirit of truth. And. And John does this juxtaposition of believers in the world the world cannot receive. Well, we again need to read this alongside Acts 2 that says this is going out to the world. And. And Acts is full of stories of people who hear the Gospel and immediately receive the spirit, you know, showing that there is a sense that the world can actually receive the Spirit. But here it's a sense in John of people who are not open to it will not see. The last thing I want to say, and I'll come back to you, Daniel, is we also get this language of abiding here in verse 17, which is very typical of John's Gospel. You know, the spirit and the translation in the NRSV is him. But it is just as legitimate to use a her for the spirit. In. In Hebrew, the ruach is a feminine word. In Greek, it's actually neuter. It's an it. We shouldn't read too much into the grammar of languages that have gender inflection, but you don't have to stick with him. You might want to be creative with your language. [00:33:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I was surprised about that as well. [00:33:18] Speaker A: Yeah. It's lots of hymns in the last part of it. Right. So we could equally read end of verse 17 as. As you know her, because she abides with you or you know them or you know it. I don't know. And she will be in you. So again, the sense of the spirit indwelling a bit like we got in Paul in Romans that, that, that abides with and, and, and I mean that's again wonderful good news that the spirit is with us. Like it, it literally is helping us in this relationship with the Father. What else do you want to say about the spirit? And where would you emphasize things this. [00:33:54] Speaker B: Week about John 14? Maybe it's just because I come from Indonesia, I think I have to mention this. [00:34:03] Speaker A: Yep. [00:34:03] Speaker B: That there is a long tradition, particularly in folk Islam, to identify the paracletos with Muhammad. [00:34:11] Speaker A: Oh, interesting. I did not know that. [00:34:13] Speaker B: So to remind people what Jesus thought and what Moses thought, which is for them is the tawhid, the oneness of God. [00:34:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:24] Speaker B: So, okay, I'm not going to bring it into debates here. [00:34:29] Speaker A: Yes. [00:34:29] Speaker B: Who's wrong, who's right. But it's an important verse to start a conversation with your Muslim friends. [00:34:37] Speaker A: Yes. And to be aware of just again, the way that these words have a tradition that can be taken up in different directions. Yeah. [00:34:44] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:45] Speaker A: That's really interesting. So lastly, drawing this together, we've had these different snapshots of the Spirit. Obviously, again, you're not going to give a 30 minute lecture on the Holy Spirit for Pentecost Sunday. One of the things I wonder if preachers might do, I mean, we can tell the story of Acts 2 and I suspect people have done that. Most Pentecosts, we often focus on that. I would encourage people to, even in the spirit of Acts, testify to where they've found the Spirit in their own lives. Like how do we know the spirit? And what does it look like, feel like, sound like? How do we recognize the spirit? We could talk quite personally. It is a chance for testimony perhaps. But what would you preach on or where would you go if you were preaching? You might be preaching at Pentecost. I don't know. [00:35:33] Speaker B: I will be preaching this Sunday, but not from the lectionary. [00:35:36] Speaker A: Okay. [00:35:37] Speaker B: So it will be about other passages. I think from these passages we can identify. I talked earlier about the importance of keep talking about the Spirit, but also critically. And I think from these passages we can see, we can see ways we can think about it critically from. From the way we see how the Spirit operates. [00:36:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:05] Speaker B: So the first one is overcoming language barrier. [00:36:11] Speaker A: Yes. [00:36:12] Speaker B: Yeah. So helping us to gather. Gather together as diverse people. [00:36:17] Speaker A: Yes. [00:36:18] Speaker B: Coming from different background. The second one from some 104 is the connection with creation. I forgot to highlight the important verse. There is verse 30. When you send forth your spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground. [00:36:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:37] Speaker B: So if we look at the nice. In creed, actually, the section about the Holy Spirit, it says, and we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life. [00:36:46] Speaker A: Life, yes. [00:36:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:48] Speaker A: The giver of life, the Spirit should be bringing life into our communities, into our faith, into our world, into creation. And into creation. Yes. So. Yep. Yep. [00:36:56] Speaker B: And the close connection of the Spirit with creation help us to think about creation. [00:37:02] Speaker A: Yes. [00:37:03] Speaker B: And the current environmental. Environmental crisis that we have. [00:37:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:08] Speaker B: And then from the passage from the Romans, the spirit of adoption against the spirit of slavery. [00:37:16] Speaker A: Yep. [00:37:16] Speaker B: That brings fear and also suffering. [00:37:20] Speaker A: Yep. [00:37:21] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's not the Holy Spirit. [00:37:23] Speaker A: Yes, that's right. [00:37:24] Speaker B: And John 14 to remind us of all that Jesus has taught us. [00:37:30] Speaker A: Yes. That's a wonderful summary of all the. All the possibilities and ways of thinking. Yeah. Thank you so much, Daniel Siombing, for being with us today. We hope to have you back. By the well is brought to you by Pilgrim Theological College and the Uniting Church in Australia. It's produced by Adrian Jackson. Thanks for listening.