C248 Pentecost 22

[00:00:05] Speaker A: You're listening to by the well, a lectionary based podcast for preachers recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri people. Hello, everyone, I'm Reverend Sandy Brodine. [00:00:20] Speaker B: And I am Daniel Sihoming. [00:00:22] Speaker A: And it's lovely to be here today to talk to you about the readings for Sunday the 9th of November, 2025, which is Pentecost cost 22. So we're getting very close to the end of the lectionary year. The readings we're going to focus on today are Haggai 1:15b to 2:9, Psalm 145:1:5 and 17:21 2 Thessalonians 2:1:5 and 13:17, and then Luke 20:27 to 38. Daniel and I had a bit of a preemptive con about what we wanted to talk about today. And in that conversation, Daggai Daniel revealed that Haggai. That's hard to say. Daniel revealed that Haggai was his favorite reading for this week and there was a theme that he was particularly keen to talk about. So, Daniel, take it away. What is this theme and why does it enthuse you? [00:01:25] Speaker B: Thank you, Sandy. I think from all the four readings that we have for this week, I like to focus on the word glory and how in different ways the word have been used or framed in all of the four readings. So I'll start with Haggai. [00:01:45] Speaker A: Right, so our focus for today is the theme of glory. Excellent, go. [00:01:52] Speaker B: If we look at haggai, the text from Haggai, particularly verse seven in chapter two, we will find in Nrsvue, it says, I will fill this house with splendor, says the Lord of hosts. But the word splendor here is a translation from Kabod, which can also be translated glory. And if you look closely at this passage, it's clear to me that it's deeply problematic because the source of God's glory here is from the shaking of all nations and their treasures. [00:02:30] Speaker A: Ah. So the glory is not coming from God directly, it's coming from. Sounds like violent and nasty behavior. [00:02:36] Speaker B: The expropriation of the wealth of other nations. [00:02:40] Speaker A: Okay. [00:02:41] Speaker B: Relocated to Jerusalem. [00:02:43] Speaker A: Ah, okay. [00:02:45] Speaker B: So the context is, of course, this is the people of Judah coming back from exile and they found Jerusalem was in ruins. So this is a kind of the wishful thinking of the oppressed. Yeah. [00:03:00] Speaker A: So it's the voice of the oppressed thinking about this, not the oppressors, is that what you're saying? [00:03:05] Speaker B: Yes. [00:03:06] Speaker A: Right. Okay, go on. [00:03:09] Speaker B: But it's interesting how the experience of the oppressed like the Jewish people just came back from Babylon from exile for decades, and now their dream is about wealth, luxury, treasures from other nations coming to them. [00:03:29] Speaker A: So they've been oppressed themselves in Babylon, they've come back, and now they're doing the same to other people in their. In their nearby area. That sounds like a colonial story that we've heard over and over again. Daniel, does that resonate with you at all? [00:03:46] Speaker B: Yeah, we can say this is a kind of imperialist eschatology. Yeah. [00:03:51] Speaker A: Say more about what? What do you mean by imperialist eschat? [00:03:55] Speaker B: Yeah, the imaginary about something coming in the future that's coming from the expropriation of wealth or riches from other parts of the world. And it's not something that is rare or unique in the Bible, because if we look at Isaiah 23, for example, there is an oracle against Tyree saying that her merchandise will supply abundant food and fine clothing for those who live in the presence of the Lord. [00:04:29] Speaker A: Okay. [00:04:30] Speaker B: So wealth from other nations will come to those who believe in God or the people of God. Very problematic. [00:04:37] Speaker A: It sounds like prosperity theology to me. Is that right? [00:04:41] Speaker B: Yeah. But can also be easily used to justify colonialism, imperialism. [00:04:48] Speaker A: The sign that God loves me. If God makes me wealthy, or God makes us as a nation wealthy, it's a sign that God is looking down on us even if we're stealing the wealth from other people. Yeah, yeah. [00:04:57] Speaker B: And I think it's. It's very tricky. I know it's very tricky. And I feel like it's very easy for people to associate wealth, luxury, even the notion of the grandness of civilization, and associate them with signs of God's blessing or that God is with them. It's very dangerous. And we've seen that in the colonial era. [00:05:27] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. [00:05:28] Speaker B: And even these days as well. [00:05:30] Speaker A: I was going to say right up to the present day, in some ways, the era of colonialism is not over, is it? [00:05:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:36] Speaker A: Yeah. So you're an Indonesian Christian. How does that play for you? [00:05:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Coming from Indonesia, I remember my first experience when I studied in Europe in 2011. I was so amazed when I looked at the wealth, the prosperity, and the relative equality that people enjoy because of what remains of the welfare state. But the longer I was there, I started to question, where does all this wealth comes from? And, well, people in the Third World some or used to talk a lot about the structure of dependence, how the wealth of the first world countries are actually built on the poverty and impoverishment of the Third World nations. And I think this is Very good week to question about all these things. [00:06:30] Speaker A: It sure is. It sure is. Yes. You wouldn't have to work very hard to think of some examples from our current time that this speaks into. [00:06:39] Speaker B: And there is a quote that is, I think, is very useful here. So it's from German philosopher in the 20th century, Walter Benjamin. In his book on the concept of history, he said that every monument of civilization is at the same time a monument of barbarism. [00:07:00] Speaker A: Wow. [00:07:01] Speaker B: So I think it's very. It's very good. Yeah. So where we see wealth, civilization, we should always ask, where does all this come from? [00:07:10] Speaker A: It makes me wonder about the fashion at the moment for knocking down statues and those sorts of things and that perhaps having them there and having that quote firmly in our mind and asking those questions is better than knocking them down. Actually thinking about reading against the grain of that history of why that monument's there and what is the barbarism that lies behind the wealth, behind the person in the big statue. [00:07:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And what should we do to overcome that structure rather than just knocking it down? [00:07:39] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm hoping that we might get a different vision of glory in some of these next readings. We shall see. [00:07:55] Speaker B: Okay, Sandy, you've done so much work on preparing materials for worship, so I'm curious to hear any idea you want to share to us all how to use this text in a worship setting. [00:08:08] Speaker A: So we're now talking, moving to about Psalm 145. And funny you should ask that question, Daniel, because I've written the indigenous resources for this week. So if you go to www.indigen.org au and look for the resources, you can download them for free. And they're there every week of the year. So they are a fantastic set of intergenerational resources. And I wrote two resources for this week that are based actually on Psalm 145. One of them is about meeting, making. Getting people to share their understanding of who God is. The other one is, is a prayer idea. So because this prayer is. Is a prayer of thanksgiving, it's the. It's David, or it's put into the mouth of David speaking his gratitude and thanks to God. And it ends in this beautiful crescendo. My mouth will speak the praise of the Lord and all will bless his holy name forever and ever. It's though the whole of creation is singing its praises to God. And. And we often will have prayers of thanksgiving where the person who's up the front leading worship will speak prayers of thanks. And people might echo something back, but One of the things that I've done when I've been in a congregation regularly is to try and embed the practice of thanksgiving or gratitude in the people by asking them to notice regularly what's in their. What they have to be thankful to God. So it's not just what the person up the front has in the lovely words, but it's actually, where's God met me this week? What do I have to be thankful to God for? And I find this to be a really good way of having people, over time, particularly if you're in the same place week after week, really begin to reflect on where God's presence is for them in their life and in their world. So I might say something like, Daniel, where have you experienced the presence of God this week? Now I've just put you on the spot. I don't know whether you've got an answer, but you might say, have you got an answer? No, you might. If I hadn't just put you on the spot, you might say something like, oh, I was out walking yesterday and I saw the most extraordinary flowers and I could breathe in the beautiful scent of that. And I had a real sense of God's presence with me. Or when I met with this student who was struggling about a particular idea and we explored the, the. The idea of God and we talked about their essay, I really had a sense that God was present with us. Something like that, you might say, might be an example if I'm making them up for you, Daniel, about things that you might. You might say. So one of them is gratitude prayer. The second one I've used this week for the, for this set of readings for Psalm 145 is an acrostic prayer. So this, this prayer, Psalm 145, is actually an acrostic. Now, we can't really tell that because it's an acrostic in Hebrew and, and it's an abcd. So it's the Alphabet as, which is not A, B, C, D in Hebrew. [00:11:03] Speaker B: It doesn't really show in the English translation, right? [00:11:06] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. You can't tell in English, so to say to people, well, what if you picked a word that says something about the nature of God and then write an acrostic with two or three people around you and do it together as an activity, thinking between you and discussing between you what. What you might have to say about the nature of God. And I've done this with various groups of people over the years, and it elicits really interesting responses from people as they think about, well, who is God for me? What would I want to say thanks to God for? How would I write that? In a prayer, in an acrostic prayer. And we share those with each other and talk about the nature of God. So it's a good way of sharing all of the understanding and wisdom in the room, young and old, no matter who we are with each other. So that's what I've done. [00:11:52] Speaker B: That's really interesting, Sandy. I would love to have that to use that in congregational setting as well. [00:11:58] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Well, you can download the resource from Intergen. It's for free. And you can do it too. Now, Daniel, you were talking about glory before and I'm just wondering, we were talking at the end of the Haggai reading that it's not a particularly nice understanding of glory in the Haggai reading. What would you say about glory Based on Psalm 145? [00:12:20] Speaker B: Thank you, Sandy. Maybe before I'm coming to glory, I would also like to add, probably if we are worshiping in multicultural intracultural setting, probably it will be nice to hear those acrostic from different languages as well. It sure would. But about the glory. So if we think about the word kabod. Yeah. Again, like the one in Hagai, it appears in verse 5. They will recount the glorious splendor of your majesty, and on your wondrous works I will meditate. But interestingly, this is of course a psalm that is likely tied to temple worship. But if we look at recounting the glorious splendor of your majesty, then the way it specifies it is the wondrous work from God, God's mighty acts that will be meditated. And if we look at verses 17 to 25 to 21, we will see that it's recounting especially the works of the Exodus. Especially I want to focus here on verses 19 to 20. So he fulfills the desire of all who fear him. He also hears the cry and saves them. So we would be reminded of Exodus 2:24, when the Israelites cried for liberation. [00:13:52] Speaker A: From Pharaoh in Egypt and they walked for 40 years in the desert and God was with them all that time. [00:13:58] Speaker B: Yeah. So which can be potentially a counter testimony to Haggai. Yeah. So God's glory here is associated with. With the project of liberation from slavery that experienced by Israelites. But of course, again, we have to be mindful and careful because as we see in the book of Haggai. Yeah. The experience of the oppressed can easily turn into the oppressors. Yes. [00:14:30] Speaker A: Thanks, Daniel. Let's move on to the next reading. Now, Daniel, we're on to 2nd Thessalonians 2 and some associated verses there. What's being revealed? What's got. How is God's glory being revealed in this reading, Daniel? [00:14:51] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you, Sandy. In this passage, the word glory appears in verse 14. For this purpose he called you through our gospel so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. And the context here is the reminder or exhortation to the people congregation in Thessalonians to not think that the day of the Lord is already here. And we will see in the next chapter actually, but that's for other people to talk about it, that some people have thought that the day of the Lord is already here and they don't want to work anymore. And because this is the context is a community of sharing in the Christian community, then some people have to bear the burden of others because some people don't want to work. So this is the issue. And the author here reminded the people that you may obtain the glory of our Jesus Christ. So there is a glory reserved for them, but you have to do the work. [00:16:01] Speaker A: Yeah, okay. [00:16:02] Speaker B: And doing the work here also means that you shouldn't be the burden for others. [00:16:09] Speaker A: I'm saying a theme here, Daniel, which. [00:16:12] Speaker B: You can see the connection with Haggai. Again, this can be a counter testimony. [00:16:16] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. Now can I just go back a step and this is possibly a different question in that first section there. I feel like we've gone a bit down the rabbit hole here because we're in this str. That's not our world where we've got a rebellion that's coming, sort of a religious rebellion coming. And the man of lawlessness will be revealed. And the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so called Job, takes his seat in the temple of God. Who are these characters? Do we. I mean, is that even a reasonable question to ask? I don't know. [00:16:53] Speaker B: Yeah. So of course in the history of Jewish people they had the experience of Antiochus Epiphanes in 2nd century BC where he defiled the temple and it became such a huge thing in Jewish history and religious understanding. But more recently in this context is the emperor Gaius Calicula around 37 to 41. [00:17:18] Speaker A: We know he's a bad guy. [00:17:19] Speaker B: Yeah, he's a bad guy. Almost like a madman. Where he already ordered a huge statue of himself to be placed in the temple of Jerusalem at that time coming from his conviction of divinity. Thankfully it was responded with massive protests from the Jewish people. But before that happened, he was murdered first in 4180 by the Romans. So it's internal issue. So the major disaster was prevented. But it seems to me that Paul. Paul or whoever, the author, it seems like, oh, this is something that. That we've just seen. [00:17:58] Speaker A: You recognize this story, right? [00:18:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And it might happen again and again. [00:18:03] Speaker A: You wouldn't have to be. You wouldn't have to think too closely about our current situation to come up with an idea of someone who is a man of lawlessness and who is not looking out for the best of the world and the best for everybody. I think it's not. Well, in. In many countries, it's not just one example, I think, of that kind of leader. So to say that actually the joy of Jesus Christ is there for you oppressed people, even though. Even though you are being oppressed by this kind of leader, this is a counterpoint, sort of sense of hope that actually there is this other glory of God that is being offered to you in juxtaposition to this man of lawlessness. Terrible leader. [00:18:43] Speaker B: Yes. And the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So this is the Lord, not Caligula, which. [00:18:51] Speaker A: Who is really the Lord? [00:18:52] Speaker B: Whoever the emperor is. [00:18:54] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's a message of hope for the oppressed. I like that. Okay, now onto this tricky question in Luke 20:27 to 38, where the Sadducees trying to trick Jesus out about their favorite topic. And I'm sitting here with a systematic theologian who might know something about the resurrection. So these Sadducees set up this ridiculous question to Jesus. Well, you know, there's this man, and he dies, and he's, you know, he's got his seven brothers and he dies. And so the wife has to marry the second brother, and he dies and he marries the third brother, and he dies and marries the fourth one, and then the seven brothers and the wife go to heaven. Who's the husband of the woman? Tricky question, Daniel. [00:19:41] Speaker B: Very tricky. And of course, you can see this is a trap, actually. [00:19:46] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:19:47] Speaker B: Absolutely. And we hear it very often in many different ways. People like to speculate, like who created evil? Is God able to create a stone that God wouldn't be able to lift it themselves? So those kind of questions. Tricky question. And a trap. [00:20:06] Speaker A: And the Pharisees also who are in the room are also not unknown for trying to trap Jesus. It's not a unusual thing for Jesus to get a trick question. [00:20:14] Speaker B: Yes. And the context here is, of course, Jesus has entered Jerusalem. [00:20:18] Speaker A: Yes. [00:20:18] Speaker B: And the previous passages Was also tricky question, trying to trap Jesus and so on. And now it comes from the Sadducees. [00:20:26] Speaker A: Yes. So we're nearly at the end of the lectionary year. We're up to this point where we start thinking about, who really is this Jesus? Who is this God that, you know, that Jesus, that Jesus is representing to us? What is the nature of this God? So he comes up with this answer. Now I can't see it about the. Oh, find it for me, Daniel, quick, where's the answer? [00:20:55] Speaker B: Those who belong to this age marry and given in marriage from verse 34. But those who are considered worthy of a pledge placed in an age that in the resurrection from the dead, neither Mary nor are given in marriage. [00:21:09] Speaker A: So. So it's got nothing to do with that. Actually, your tricky question. We're actually going to talk about something else. What it means to live and what it means to not live. So. So if you, if you're a Sadducee, you might hear that and think, oh, they're all dead anyway, and God doesn't care about the dead people, so it's fine. Or is he trying to say something else about the resurrection, Daniel, that those who have ears to hear it might hear? Yeah. [00:21:32] Speaker B: I like to think here about the role of. Well, you mentioned about my role in a systematic theology lecturer, so I'd like to talk here about the role of eschatology. [00:21:43] Speaker A: Oh, okay, there's that big word again. Go on. [00:21:45] Speaker B: So eschatology is the doctrine of the last things. And sometimes people think, oh, this is too speculative, it's not worth it. When we learn systematic theology in theological college, we learn it the last thing. Right. [00:21:57] Speaker A: So that's the end. Times are the last thing. Right. Okay. And we live in 2025 when, you know, it's a long time after Jesus came, so you may as well not worry about it too much because who knows when that's going to happen? Right. Might have been a bit more in the face for the people in the. [00:22:12] Speaker B: Text and in the sequence of schismatic theology also find it's often in the last bit of it. Yes, yes, but this is one of the texts where we can say that, that it's very important. And I want to say why it is. [00:22:29] Speaker A: So please. [00:22:30] Speaker B: Because if you look where this question comes from, it's from the Sadducees. Yes. [00:22:35] Speaker A: So tell us more. Who are they? [00:22:37] Speaker B: So they are like the aristocrats, religious people in Jerusalem. So they are the elites. [00:22:43] Speaker A: And they have a certain belief, don't they, about resurrection? [00:22:46] Speaker B: They don't believe about resurrection. [00:22:48] Speaker A: Okay. [00:22:49] Speaker B: In fact, if we look at Acts 23, where we see the debates between the Pharisees and Sadducees, it also mentions that the Sadducees believes there is no resurrection, no angel or spirit, which is what Jesus mentioned here. Angels and children of God. So Jesus was against them, of course. And here we see Jesus is a bit leaning more towards the Pharisees who believe in those three things. But what I want to see here from the eschatological standpoint is that how the belief in resurrection in eschatology is actually quite challenging and unsettling for the status quo. [00:23:31] Speaker A: Okay, say more. [00:23:32] Speaker B: There is a reason why the Sadducees don't want to believe in the resurrection because it unsettles their position and power in the history at that time. And I want to look at how Jesus answered, connecting it with, of course, marriage. And it's not the big deal. But when you look from verse 37, he appealed to the story of Exodus, which we find in Psalms. In the earlier reading on psalms. So Exodus 2, 24, 23, the fact that the dead are raised. Moses himself showed in the story about the bush, so resurrection. [00:24:17] Speaker A: And when he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. So there's another example from Genesis. [00:24:24] Speaker B: So the belief about resurrection is implied in the story of Exodus because God is God, not of the dead, but of the living, of the living. And remember when Jesus mentioned the God of Abraham, Isaac and God of Jacob, it's also mentioned in Exodus 22, 24 and 25. So God heard the cry of Israel and remember God's covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So I feel like this must be challenging and unsettling for the Sadducees of the status quo, because if God is God of the living, what happened in the past might happen again. [00:25:04] Speaker A: Okay. And we. Yeah, that's dangerous. So if you're preaching this, Daniel, where would you. Where would. What would be the message for the people? What. What does this mean for us today? What would you reflect on? [00:25:17] Speaker B: Well, I can preach 30 minutes from all the readings. Yeah, yeah. But interestingly, Luke 20:27-38 doesn't mention the word glory at all. No, but we can relate the idea of resurrection with glory. Of course. [00:25:33] Speaker A: Yes. [00:25:33] Speaker B: Using the connection with second Thessalonians. [00:25:37] Speaker A: Yes. [00:25:38] Speaker B: And. And yeah, it can again be a counter testimony to Haggai and complement Psalm 145 and Second Thessalonians as well. [00:25:50] Speaker A: Fantastic. Hey, I wonder, I would wonder what does it mean when, when for us to be like the angels and the children of God? Like, if we. If we were truly being called to be like the angels and the children of God, how might we be living? What might we be doing? [00:26:05] Speaker B: Oh, maybe that's what you can say more about that. I know you've done a lot of work about that, Sandy. [00:26:10] Speaker A: Maybe I would, but they'd be the kinds of questions I would be asking a community. What would it mean for us to be the bringers of hope, the bringers of joy, bring us a peace, you know, we're about to go into the season of Advent. There's all those words that are part of Advent. What, What. What does it mean? What is God calling us to do as followers of Jesus? To be living a different way? We talked about bringers of hope in the second Thessalonians reading. And I. I think perhaps that that might be what, you know, this story of resurrection again, is a story of hope, isn't it? These, these days, as they currently are, are. I was at a conference the other day where it sounded like we were all talking about pie in the sky when we die. And I ended up talking about the delay of the parousia and thought, oh, I better not have people realized eschatology. I better not have everyone's eyes glazing over at me. And I then went on to explain that we'll actually realize eschatology is. It's not just at the end times, but actually Christ's action in the kingdom of God happens for us. It's realized. It's here and now. God's kingdom is with us now. So the hope is not just about the end times when we might be resurrected with the dead, but actually all of this stuff that Jesus promises about who we might be and how we might leave our promises for now, which I think is what is important for that Haggai reading, because it's not just that the oppressed will be all right, you know, at some future point, but actually God is walking with the oppressed now. God remembers the Israelites in Exodus in the middle of the story, you know, like, is with them the whole way through. So. So that I think that realized eschatology or that end times coming into our breaking into our current real life is. Is maybe where the hope is for me in all of this. How does that sound to you, Daniel? [00:27:54] Speaker B: Yeah, living as people of the resurrection. [00:27:56] Speaker A: Yeah, living as people of the resurrection. I think that's a good place for us to end. Daniel, thank you for the conversation by the well is brought to you by Pilgrim Theological College and the Uniting Church in Australia. It's produced by Adrian Jackson. Thanks for listening.