B243 Pentecost 21

[00:00:05] Speaker A: You're listening to by the well, a lectionary based podcast preaches recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri people. Hello. I'm Robyn Whittaker. [00:00:18] Speaker B: And I'm Sally Douglas. [00:00:19] Speaker A: And this is the episode for the 21st week after Pentecost, or in some traditions, proper 23, which will be Sunday the October 13. [00:00:29] Speaker B: And the readings for this Sunday are job 23, one to nine, and then jumping over to 16 and 17. Psalm 22, one to 15, hebrews 412 to 16, and mark 1017 to 31. And we'll be particularly focusing on job and psalm and mark. [00:00:46] Speaker A: Yep. So, Sally, we're here in the middle of job. We've got four weeks of job in the lectionary. We heard a little bit from the beginning of the story last week. For those following along, what do we need to know about job to enter the story where we do hear in chapter 23? [00:01:02] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. So I think there's quite a few things we need to know. One of the first things to note is that it's presented as a story. So as we approach this text, we're approaching it as a story, not from that perspective, although therefore, it doesn't matter because it didn't happen, but rather from the perspective of stories help us to understand our reality and to engage with the biggest questions of meaning and wondering. And this is a story that does that magnificently, raising a whole range of questions, but particularly focuses on why do terrible things happen to good people? Which is the age old question. It's such an integral question with people in the church, beyond the church of other religions. And this text is attending to that question. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's really important to note that in the tradition, job is a righteous man. Right. He's not just innocent, he's not neutral. He is a righteous man. He's faithful. He follows God. He's done good works. You know, he is presented as the pinnacle of a righteous jew, and yet he suffers. [00:02:00] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's a perfect example of that question of what do we do with that? So I think that's important thematically. And then stepping back from the text and wondering, where did it come from? Cause there's lots of debates in scholarship. Is this really a jewish text? And so there's lots of thoughts around it, perhaps not being originally or being an adapted text from another tradition. So I think that's really interesting, too. So there are lots of connections people make, but one of them is probably more convincing to the babylonian theodicy. But that doesn't have the role of God in the same way. So if jewish communities are drawing from a text from elsewhere and then actually saying, but this is our response to this question of suffering, and God is essential to that. [00:02:44] Speaker A: Yep. And the section we have today from chapter 23 is, it's actually a form of hebrew poetry. We're not going to get into the technicalities, but that it is notoriously difficult to translate. So if you compare different versions of English, you might find some variations, because the hebrew hebrew poetry is hard anyway. But there are some words that's just not quite clear in the way that poetry can be a bit elusive. But we just get this sense, and this has been going on for several chapters, right at the point we pick it up. Even now, my complaint is defiant, says Job, I'm reading the Robert alter translation here. God's hand lies heavy as I groan. And this sense of searching for God, if I knew where to find God, I could bring my case. So we've got in mind here is this idea of a heavenly court, which we get in job with the Satan figure, the adversary is the accuser. Yep. Is in the heavenly court. So if I could just find God, I could bring my case so that I would understand what's happening. Right. [00:03:47] Speaker B: Bring my questions and find out. [00:03:49] Speaker A: And find out. [00:03:49] Speaker B: Fantastic. [00:03:50] Speaker A: And it goes to that very human impulse. If we could just understand the why these things are happening, we could maybe begin to make sense of them. [00:03:59] Speaker B: That's right. And so the context coming up to this speech is that in that first part of the opening story that we hear a tiny part of in last week's readings is this accuser figure, Citan, or Satan, is like a lawyer, a prosecutor. We need to get rid of any kind of imagination, of pitchforks or tails. Yeah, none of that matter. It's this accuser, like, testing people. And it's the kind of imagery that's picked up in the gospels when Jesus is in the wilderness as well, that's the kind of understanding. So it's a way of. One way of this story responds to evil is that God doesn't cause it. God gives permission for it because the accuser wants to test. And then poor job has this pylon from his wife and his friends all telling him, you must have done something wrong, seriously, like, you've made mistakes throughout. And then job just defends himself like, he is really, he is righteous and he stands in his strengths. I haven't. I am the one who needs answers. Like, it's a really, really strong figure, that questioning. While we might find it striking, I think, in the church, because at times there's this kind of view of we must always be thankful and not question. That's not the tradition that we're from. Jewish tradition is full of questioning. If we read the psalms, it's like, where are you? I've drenched my pillow in tears. Where are you, God? And so it's certainly picking up on those same wisdom traditions of asking, yeah. [00:05:19] Speaker A: Yeah, where are you, God? And there's such. And we're gonna see this in psalm 22, too. There is this detail of, you know, I look to my right and I looked behind, like he's looking all around and God can't be found again, mirroring, you know, these hebrew stories, in a sense, mirror back to us a very common human experience of sometimes we just feel God's absence. [00:05:44] Speaker B: That's right. [00:05:44] Speaker A: We cry out and we do not feel the presence of God. [00:05:48] Speaker B: That's right. [00:05:49] Speaker A: And the thing I find amazing about job as an exemplar of faith, if we want to think of him, I don't think that's the only part of the story. But is he keeps crying out to God. So to cry out and question God is its own act of faithful resilience. Right? [00:06:06] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:06:07] Speaker A: And I think in so much of our protestant tradition, we've been taught if we're crying out and complaining to God, we're not faithful. [00:06:13] Speaker B: That's right. [00:06:14] Speaker A: We're actually. If we're still talking to God, we're still in relationship. [00:06:17] Speaker B: You know what? Even if we're saying, actually, God, I'm not talking to you today, that's still. [00:06:21] Speaker A: An expression of a bit annoyed with you. I'm not speaking to you. But, hey, I actually am. [00:06:26] Speaker B: Yeah. If you're doubting what we're saying, just read psalms. Honestly, read psalm 66. Sorry, psalm six or psalm 77. Like the space for crying out to God is astonishing. The thing I love in this little passage in job, in verses eight and nine is it feels like it's dancing with psalm 139, where it's this sense of, anywhere I go, you're with me. If I ran to the furthest fields, you would be there. And it's saying, I'm looking around and you're not there. Like, it feels like there's this kind of dance of different experiences which I love in this story. [00:07:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:00] Speaker B: One thing I think that's really beautiful to highlight about job in general is that across the Old Testament and the new, there are different responses to this question of why is there suffering? And here it is, made abundantly clear this is not job's fault. So in other portions of the scripture there is a sense of, you know, the people of Israel, we've failed and therefore that's why we've sinned. [00:07:23] Speaker A: We need to change our behaviour or do something. [00:07:26] Speaker B: But here it is absolutely not the case that that has happened. And we need to hold onto the fact that different texts within the biblical text there are different understandings of suffering. And so too when we come to Jesus, Jesus doesn't deserve the betrayal that he experiences and the unfair trial and his death. Suffering is not a consequence always of seen as a punishment in any way at all. And I think we really need to know that because unfortunately, not just in the church, beyond the church. Like, I've spent time with people in chaplains, in hospitals who are not christians and they've said to me, I've got cancer because I did something wrong and I don't know where they've absorbed that from. Like, it's not from the church. But that is such an assumption that people make. If something's bad happened, it's a consequence of behaviour and that's not what's going on. [00:08:13] Speaker A: Yeah, it's almost that idea of karma, but there's a version of it in Christianity, right. I must have done something wrong because God. And we're gonna see that when we get to the gospel. To jump ahead. This idea that, you know, being a person of faith does not protect you, does not mean you get to be wealthy and prosper. [00:08:31] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:08:31] Speaker A: So those strands are there. But we also have very strong counter voices to those strands that somehow being a person of faith will protect you from all those things. [00:08:40] Speaker B: And if you're wanting neat answers at the end of job, you're gonna be disappointed though. Cause it doesn't just tie it all up. It's like, well, I'm God and I'm bigger and you can't get it. And that's the kind of. And so it's being able to sit with mystery and wondering is the invitation, I think, and honesty, being able to be honest about this. This is terrible. Goddess, where are you? And God does show up. And God affirms job like he is the righteous one. He speaks righteously at the end of all of that lament. But we don't get neat answers either. [00:09:06] Speaker A: No, we don't. So my sense is if one is to preach on job and probably with the psalm, you know, it might be the kind of sermon that's actually quite reflective. It is about asking some questions about really connecting it to encouraging people to think for themselves how, you know, on their own experiences when they've suffered, where they've found God, where they haven't. And in a sense, maybe to even comfort or affirm people that if you felt God's absence, that's not about you. Right. It's not that you've not alone. [00:09:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:38] Speaker A: You're not actually alone. [00:09:39] Speaker B: That's right. [00:09:40] Speaker A: Which might be a nice segue to the psalm, if you're prepared to go there. [00:09:44] Speaker B: Yes. [00:09:45] Speaker A: Which also has this sense of, you know, this starts with this famous line that the gospel writers, Mark and Matthew in particular, will put in the mouth of Jesus on the cross. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me? From the words of my groaning? So the same language of groaning that we get in job and this crying out and this sense of the absence of God when someone is suffering. [00:10:09] Speaker B: Yeah. And the fact that the authors of Mark and Matthew put this into Jesus mouth is astonishing. So the proclamation within that is that the God one experiences within very self the absence of goddess, profound mystery and comfort, that in our own experience of the absence of God, this is also God's experience within God's self. [00:10:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, I think another way to put that, too, I think, is, as you said before, Sally, in Job and some of this other wisdom literature and the apocalyptic literature, we start to get different ways of thinking about suffering and how we make sense of it, those theodicy questions. But of course, in the New Testament, that takes on a particular form in Jesus, who is the righteous sufferer. [00:10:56] Speaker B: Right. Who suffers doesn't deserve any of them. [00:10:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And so embodies this in a very particular way. [00:11:02] Speaker B: Absolutely. Going back to the psalm. [00:11:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:11:05] Speaker B: One of the things I love. Do you know, one of the things I love about it and have come to really treasure over the most recent bit of time is that it's right next to psalm 23. So people know psalm 23, you know, the Lord is my shepherd. You know, I'm comforted being fed in front of my enemies. I'm next to the water, I'm getting a rest. But just before it, it's like, actually you've gone, where are you? And I love that the editors, when they're putting these together, can hold these two expressions of faithfulness which look so different, you know, because that's reflective of our reality, I think. Or can be. [00:11:37] Speaker A: Yes. You can almost map the movements of the sum. It's almost like two conversations or two sides of a coin where we're going back and forth between some pretty extreme positions. So we've got this opening two verses. I cry out to God. You don't answer. And then this affirmation in verse three to five, you're holy, you're enthroned. So to say you're enthroned is to say you are ruling, right? You're powerful, you're there, you've delivered. [00:12:11] Speaker B: The people, they cried out, and you were there for them. [00:12:14] Speaker A: You're trustworthy. Right? So we have this big theological affirmation, and then in verse six, we go back to I'm a worm. I'm not human, which I actually really love. I think there's something about not in a self flagellating way. I know there's a lot of people who struggle with a lack of self love, but for me, this language can just kind of. [00:12:36] Speaker B: I don't know when you're in the abyss. [00:12:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it could be. [00:12:39] Speaker B: And it's honesty. Honest in the text, too, about other people's involvement. Other people are treating the speaker in terrible ways. And I think sometimes, again, in christian communities, and obviously christian communities have many gifts. But one of the shadows can be that we pretend to be nice or we pretend that everyone is being nice rather than actually going. No, sometimes we treat each other terribly. And what might it mean to be able to say that out loud and to confess it, but also to challenge. Challenge the behavior, but testify to it? So, you know, God, this is how they're treating me. This is not okay. This is contributing to my suffering. So, you know, in job, the suffering is illness and then no one getting what he's going through. But here it seems like the experience of other people's treatment is contributing to the sense that, well, God must have gone away, actually. [00:13:30] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. So, you know, the sense of being despised and scorned and mocked by others. Yeah. And again, juxtaposing with an affirmation in verses nine to eleven, back to God. So we're also getting a contrast between how God has treated the psalmist, whoever's, and how people. So people are mocking and scorning and treating this person as less than human. I am not human. I'm a worm. And then we get this. But God, you took me from the womb, you kept me safe at my mother's breast. You know, you cast me from my birth. Don't be far from me. An affirmation of God's this person is precious in God's sight, even if they're not precious in the sight of humans. [00:14:11] Speaker B: Absolutely. It's profound. [00:14:13] Speaker A: It's very beautiful. And then the sense of being surrounded by bulls and port, you know, there's very much a sense of being surrounded by enemies and hated, which is why, you know, you can see why people applied this to Jesus centuries later. [00:14:27] Speaker B: And it's interesting, the lectionary finishes on the low note because the psalm in the second half picks up and it. This sense of God being with all and all being gathered in, even those who have died and so on. But I kind of like that it ends on the low note because it invites us to take seriously that there are times of lament and grief and that we don't just always rush to Easter day. Like sometimes we stay with Good Friday or we stay with holy Saturday, you know, with the wondering and the despair, not groveling and, you know, not immersing ourselves in it, but just being honest about. Actually, sometimes it's just really hard. [00:15:05] Speaker A: That's right. And I wondered, too. I don't often preach on psalms, but if I was going to preach on this one, there's almost a sense of. We get a flipping between the vision of how God views this person, the psalmist, and even between the milk of a mother's breast, and then where it ends with this tongue sticking to my mouth because it's dusty, the lack of nourishment and water and breast milk. How the world. I mean, there's something you could play with there in the, you know, about the way God views us versus the way we often either view ourselves or other people view us. [00:15:43] Speaker B: I think that could be amazing, particularly just thinking about young people. And, you know, in the media, we're talking about government changes to regulations with smartphones and devices because of the social negative impacts of social media on young people. So the cultural values of our society right now will tell young people and older people that your value is in how you are perceived, how many likes you have, how many followers you have, all of that. And, you know, no wonder poor young people, so many young people are just struggling with sense of self to have. I mean, this is radical conviction to say, actually the source of all, the composer of the universe sees you, saw you in the womb, saw you in your mother's arms or carer's arms, and you are beloved despite what other people are doing, wagging their tongues at you. Yeah, I mean, that's. [00:16:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. [00:16:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, that's good news. [00:16:34] Speaker A: That is good news. So shall we have a brief note on Hebrews four very briefly? [00:16:46] Speaker B: We can spend weeks on Hebrews, but. [00:16:49] Speaker A: We have to get to Mark. [00:16:50] Speaker B: We do. So just that sense here, at least in this part of Hebrews, and we don't know who wrote it, and dating is interesting and all of those questions, but the sense of Jesus being the priest who knows our suffering. So our high priest who actually has not seen, is the one with that sin that's really important for the author of Hebrews, but who actually knows what it's like. So that really connects in with the suffering God, that sense that, you know, Maltmande amplify the crucified God. Yeah, yeah. [00:17:15] Speaker A: So if you were going to preach on job and the psalm, I think, bringing this in and that, you know, that is an insight from the New Testament we don't get in the older Testament, even though Jesus is this high priest, it's the dominant image for Christ in Hebrews. He is a high priest who has suffered and doesn't sympathise. [00:17:39] Speaker B: And at the start of Hebrews, Jesus is imaged as Sophia, as woman wisdom. So it's not just a human person who's elevated to being a high priestess. This is the incarnate, one who has dwelt with us and suffered and now reigns and is with us as we suffer. [00:17:55] Speaker A: Yeah. And also that line in verse 16, I think that's included. Let us therefore approach the throne of grace with boldness. [00:18:02] Speaker B: Isn't that beautiful? [00:18:03] Speaker A: So that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. So again, almost a kind of an encouragement here to turn to God with those questions and groanings as they are. [00:18:16] Speaker B: Not some prettied up version. [00:18:18] Speaker A: No, that's right. [00:18:19] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely. [00:18:21] Speaker A: All right, Mark, 1017 to 31. [00:18:26] Speaker B: Yes. So I love this story. [00:18:36] Speaker A: Do you? [00:18:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:37] Speaker A: Oh, I love. Why? Well, do you like all of Mark? [00:18:40] Speaker B: I do like all of Mark. Just a shout out. We don't actually find out if the young man comes back, I always like to keep the door open. He might have come back later, like, he went away, grieved, but who knows? [00:18:50] Speaker A: He might have had a think. [00:18:52] Speaker B: Let's just keep that door open for this rich young man. [00:18:55] Speaker A: Yeah. So we're in this section of Mark from sort of middle of chapter eight to the end of chapter ten, where there's lots of teaching about discipleship, what it means to follow Jesus, and we're punctuated with threats, times what are often called passion predictions. But where Jesus explicitly teaches for the first time in chapter eight, that he will suffer, he'll be rejected, he will die and he will rise again. [00:19:20] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:19:21] Speaker A: And they're horrified and they're all horrified because they're like, hang on, this isn't. [00:19:25] Speaker B: What we signed up for journey that. [00:19:26] Speaker A: We thought we were on. So it's in this section of Mark, you start to get the pick up your cross language. If you want to follow me, deny yourself first will be last. All this kind of upside down kingdom teaching. [00:19:38] Speaker B: That's right. And in the midst of that, I think the author of Mark is using humour because Jesus is saying all of this stuff and the disciples are like, they've got their hands in their ears going la la la la, I'm not listening. And actually, who's the best out of us? Like, they're having fights about. [00:19:50] Speaker A: Yes. [00:19:50] Speaker B: Who's the most important? And James and John want to know who's going to sit on the best sides of Jesus. Like, the contrast is astonishing. And I think we're supposed to be shocked and laugh and also kind of recognize ourselves in that as well. You know, the call to humility, the call to this upside down kingdom, wherever the first or last, and we're called to actually use our power for others. I mean, that's the call of a lifetime to actually let that sink into us. [00:20:13] Speaker A: Yes. Yep. Takes forever. And to me, one of the big questions going on here is who gets into the kingdom and what do you have to do to get into the kingdom? And so it's really important to notice, just before we get to this rich man, we've had children coming to Jesus, and Jesus says, let the little children come to me. Do not stop them. For it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs and. [00:20:42] Speaker B: That you need to receive the kingdom like a child. Now, what is that? Let's think about that for a second. I hate the way that this teaching has been sentimentalised and watered down. [00:20:54] Speaker A: What do you think? [00:20:55] Speaker B: Well, I think quite a few things. One of the things, if you're in the presence of a child, like wherever it doesn't be your child, like a two or three year old who wants something, they're just gonna ask. [00:21:08] Speaker A: They demand. [00:21:08] Speaker B: They're not gonna say, sorry for asking, can you please? It's like, I want a drink or whatever it is. And then likewise, if you give a little child, this is, you know, a child who's been brought up in a safe and loving way. Give a little child gift. [00:21:24] Speaker A: Yep. [00:21:25] Speaker B: They're not gonna go, I don't think I'm worthy of the gift. They're gonna get it, wrap it, unwrap it quickly and play. So to receive the kingdom like a child, I think is to become much more like that. So to be honest, like sort of like the psalm and job about, you know, this is where I'm at. God, you need to help me, but also to receive it without trying to earn it or prove our worth or feel like we're better than what? Just receive it with joy and delight. [00:21:49] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. And there's something in all of that you're saying that is about, like, little children until they. Until they, unfortunately learn not to, are incredibly trusting. [00:21:58] Speaker B: Yes. [00:21:58] Speaker A: So if a child says, I want a drink, and you give them a drink, they'll accept that you're not poisoning them. Right. Like, there's no suspicion there. So there is something about just the openness and receptiveness to all that comes their way and a kind of enthusiasm that I think is being juxtaposed also in the ancient world. Children are, you know, much more a culture of seen but not heard. [00:22:19] Speaker B: That's right. [00:22:20] Speaker A: That's why the disciples are keeping children away, that lower social standing. So we've got a juxtaposition between a child and a wealthy man, who. [00:22:31] Speaker B: So in the hierarchy, hierarchical head of. [00:22:34] Speaker A: His household, probably, if he's a wealthy man and has a house and he's a good man, he approaches Jesus with respect, he kneels. He's got a legitimate question. [00:22:45] Speaker B: Let's not have a go at him for all those things. Jesus looks at him and loves him. I love that detail. Oh, my goodness. [00:22:50] Speaker A: It's actually the only time we get a phrase like that in the gospels, that Jesus looks at him and it's the agapa, or love. Like I did. Check which love word it was. He looks at him and loves him. So this is not all rich people are evil. No, it's not that at all. This is not. And it's not even a blanket condemnation of wealth, I think. But maybe we should get into the text to make that case. So we've got the man approaching Jesus, you know, very much, two Jews having a conversation about how do you live faithfully? And Jesus is citing the commandments. They could all agree these are the basic paths to kind of righteous living. And then Jesus ups the ante massively. And I think we should be clear what Jesus tells him. [00:23:40] Speaker B: You lack one thing. Go sell what you own and give the money to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me. So it's an invitation into discipleship? [00:23:49] Speaker A: Yes. [00:23:49] Speaker B: So it's not to sell it for. Sell it and then do whatever you want. It's a call into discipleship. [00:23:56] Speaker A: Yes. [00:23:57] Speaker B: I reckon people continue to debate what exactly the one thing is and what that means. And I think it's open to complexity and we can understand it in different ways at different times. But certainly I think it's imitation out of reliance upon stuff and reliance upon proof your worth, because that seems like it's really central for him. And this about eternal life, like the Zoe e on the life of the age, life of the new age, exactly how the young man understands that, whether it's in the future life or not, or who knows? I think we could again, hold that open a bit as well. But he's trying to get there rather than actually being open to grace within his life. And for him, wealth is blocking that. [00:24:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's right. And it's not, again, this is not about wealth per se, being bad or evil, but it's sell it for a purpose, give the money to the poor. And I wonder if there's a connection between that and the commandments above in that. I mean, Jesus is just citing a few of the famous ones here, but in a way, they stand in as a reference to all the law and commandments. And if you follow the ethos of the law and the commandments, it is to care for the poor and the vulnerable and the widow. This is how you embody in real life the things you've said. I follow. Right. [00:25:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:18] Speaker A: And for this particular man. So I want to be really careful. Like, we go through loopholes to make sure this doesn't really apply to us too literally. [00:25:27] Speaker B: I want to apply it a bit. Yeah, we'll get there. [00:25:30] Speaker A: And that even if you are, you know, averagely middle class, you are wealthy by global standards in a country like Australia. So we need to. Nothing, pretend this isn't speaking to us. [00:25:41] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:25:42] Speaker A: But I do think it is. There's also something here about a particular calling for this man, that this is how he's going to embody what he's just verbally assented to. [00:25:50] Speaker B: Okay, so. And there's something about the way he's approaching faithfulness that Jesus is challenging. Yes. So can we come back to what it might mean, what we preach about? But I just want to talk about the disciples shock and horror. I. [00:26:06] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:08] Speaker B: So they are appalled. I mean, they're already appalled because Jesus has welcomed children and said to be like them. So they're probably reeling from shock. And now Jesus is disrupting basic assumptions about this man must be blessed and favored by God because he's wealthy. And again, that's kind of what is in the background in job, what have you done? His friends say to him, what have you done to cause this suffering? And job has done nothing. But yet human nature loves to have these little clear, logical, have stuff must be blessed. That kind of, you know, and we see it in secular culture all the time. And this hashtag, I'm blessed because I'm. [00:26:44] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. [00:26:45] Speaker B: You know, whatever. Well, being person or whatever. So Jesus entirely is upside. It says, actually, no, God is not favoring him any more than anybody else. This is not how divine reality works. And it's actually harder for wealthy people to enter into this, which would have. [00:27:00] Speaker A: Been mind blowing in their I day and age. [00:27:03] Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, the sense, I don't like the evidence is there wasn't a gates, the camel. Like, it's a joke. [00:27:11] Speaker A: Jesus is making some absurd. Right. Like, this is literally the impossible thing. [00:27:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:17] Speaker A: Which is why he says, but with God, all things are possible. It's only with God these things are possible. [00:27:22] Speaker B: Exactly. So it disrupts our mentalities, too, I think, because we can. Our culture is saturated with that kind of idea, whether God's at the top of it or not, but whether it's karma or just a vague kind of vibe of things, that if things are going well, you must be being favored in some way. That's not how God operate. The God of Jesus Christ, who is the God of Israel, operates in a different way. That's not how things happen. [00:27:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:47] Speaker B: So for us. [00:27:49] Speaker A: Yeah. What do you think? The wealth, the kind of. [00:27:51] Speaker B: I think we in the uniting church are pretty bad about talking about wealth specifically, and I think there we should talk about it more. And so the other part of that is, is I think often people just feel guilty all the time about having money and not giving everything away. So I feel like there's a real pastoral need to talk about this. And so there are different people who write about this, kind of, like, you know, Peter Singer, like, talks about, you know, giving, living, earning as much as you can, to give as much away as you can. Like, there are different models for this in the secular world as well, in the christian world. And I think, wouldn't it be interesting to raise how do we seek to serve the poor or the marginal in, like, are we tithing 10%? Are we trying to give more than that? Like, to actually have robust conversations. And I just. John Chrysostom, a famous preacher, people used to gather and write down his sermons from the early church. He was really scathing about the wealthy because all these wealthy people were flooding into Christianity because it had become the new flavour of religion for the empire and they were not giving away their wealth. Like, they would not have loved this story. Scathing about. Seriously, if you're up, if your chamber pot, you know, for the toilet needs overnight, it's gold and people are starving down the road, you're not, like, you're not living at christian faith. Like, I think there is a place to be challenging excess in a. Particularly in our culture, which is definitely with accumulation. [00:29:15] Speaker A: Yes. But if I hear you correctly, you're saying just because we might not have excess, like, you know, the beach house and the this and the that and whatever fancy car or whatever we, whatever we think excess is, which is going to be different wherever we're socially located, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be actually doing that deeper ethical work of what could we give away? What are we attached to? [00:29:39] Speaker B: How do we live simply so that we. [00:29:41] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. How do we live simply so we share? So for someone like Peter Singer, I know, so, ethicist, currently at Princeton, but originally australian, who's written a lot about poverty, he doesn't eat out at restaurants, he eats a simple vegan meal at home. And his whole thing is I eat simply, I get enough nourishment from my food so that I can give money away for people who can't afford to eat at all. And, you know, that's something he's decided for himself. But there it is. Ways of thinking about how we do that. [00:30:11] Speaker B: I think that could be a really fruitful conversation about not guilty one another, but about how can we live out Jesus call, which it is across the gospels and in the epistles around caring for the vulnerable, but also make sure we're fed and caring for our own bodies and so on. I think that's a really fruitful conversation to have. [00:30:29] Speaker A: Yep. Can I pivot? And one of the things I loved rereading this is we've got the rich men coming and almost looking for some validation. Like, I follow all the commandments and Jesus ups the ante there. And then Peter in verse 28, again, a bit of validation, like, but we've left everything and followed you. Like, think about what emotion you assume. There. Is he whining? Is he boasting? I don't really know, but there is a sense of, oh, we've done this right, we've all left everything and Jesus is just like, you know, but what have you gained? [00:30:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:00] Speaker A: And there's some really interesting things in this list. [00:31:02] Speaker B: Sure are. [00:31:04] Speaker A: And one of the things to notice is in the long list of what you've left, there's a father mentioned, and in the long list of what you will receive, the father has dropped out of the list. And I wonder. I think there's probably two things going on. The first is probably more likely, which is God is father. So everyone in this new community that has new brothers and sisters and a new household, this is imagining the kind of kingdom formed around community. They all have a common father, which is goddesse. I like to think the other aspect possibly could be there's no patriarchy. [00:31:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:44] Speaker A: So if the father's head of the household, when your father. Patriarchy and hierarchical structures are completely demolished in this new kingdom. [00:31:53] Speaker B: Absolutely. So I think Jesus call in the Lord's prayer across the gospels about calling God father is a disruption of patriarchy, because if God is father, then no one else is. And Matthew's gospel makes that really clear. Call no one else father. It's really explicit in Matthews about that disruption of Patrick. I totally agree with that. [00:32:12] Speaker A: Any last comments? [00:32:13] Speaker B: Well, I just love that. I mean, it's not funny, but it is that you get all these things and also persecutions. So it's. [00:32:19] Speaker A: I know. [00:32:20] Speaker B: So it's being honest about this is not like, leave everything and then everything's gonna be awesome. That is just not what Jesus ever says. Jesus promised to be with us, as, you know, exemplified in Matthew's Gospel, but there's this promise of this new kinship here. But it's still going to be tough. [00:32:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is a reminder that what's imagined there in this new kingdom is actually something in the earthly planet. [00:32:43] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:32:44] Speaker A: This is not some future rewards in heaven. This is what you're receiving now in this new community. And, I mean, I think, Sal, you and I probably both know people in this world whose families have rejected them, or a dysfunctional or a myriad of things for whom the church and the christian community becomes a home and a family when we live up to our best selves that is possible. [00:33:08] Speaker B: Please may we be so. Yeah, absolutely. [00:33:10] Speaker A: And there is a sense of what that looks like, the kingdom in action and eternal life in the future, but. [00:33:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's happening now. Yeah. [00:33:18] Speaker A: Thank you for listening by the well is brought to you by Pilgrim Theology College and the Uniting church in Australia. It's produced by Adrian Jackson. Thanks for listening.