B244 Pentecost 22

[00:00:05] Speaker A: You're listening to by the well, a lectionary based podcast for preachers recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri people. Hi, I'm Sally Douglas. [00:00:19] Speaker B: And I'm Monica Melanchthon. [00:00:20] Speaker A: And you're listening to by the well, a lectionary podcast. And this week we're looking at the Sunday after Pentecost 22, or ordinary time 22, which is October 20. And the readings are job 38, one to seven, and then the option to read 34 to 41, psalm 104, one to 924, then the little end at 35 c, Hebrews 5110, and mark 1035 to 45. And we're going to have a bit of a look at each of these readings. So, Monica, let's talk about job. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Hey. Yes, we have been hearing about Job for a couple of weeks, or maybe more, and so I think people have a sense of what the book is about and the progression. Here we have a speech by God which is being delivered to job, perhaps in response to some of the questions he has raised. And I first want to say that this speech of God spoken through the whirlwind is a very, very significant text within the book of Job. It stands out primarily because of the superiority of the language, particularly in the Hebrew. But I don't think we can, even if you read it in English, we can see how powerful and how beautiful the entire poem is structured. And so here you find that God speaks out of the whirlwind. And the first thought that comes to my mind is that, oh, God speaks through the elements of creation or through the elements of the earth. And so here is God, the God of creation, who uses God's creation to convey a message to God's hearers. And here to Job. Why the whirlwind? Well, within the HebRew tradition, you have several images of the storm God. So Yahweh as the storm God, who speaks through thunder, who speaks through lightning, who speaks through whirlwind. And so this is another image of God that we tend to note, think about often. But I think in religions where they have different gods for different elements, this speaks quite powerfully. So that is the first thing I'd like to say. If you look through the entire passage that has been for today, you would notice that there are three other images of God that come through this passage. The first of all, it is God the creator. Perhaps. For me, I'd like to think about God the architect, the one who fascinates this earth, who measured it, and, you know, who built it according to a particular rationale, which we may not understand. So this is the God who laid the foundations of the earth, who determined the measurements of the earth, who stretched the line upon it. So God is provocatively asking, job, who do you think did all this? So therefore, the language is of God the architect. Then you have from verses 34 on, you have God the weatherman or the weather person. So God is here once again asking that God has created this earth, that God also is one who is sovereign over gods, over the weather, who can. [00:04:10] Speaker A: Tilt the water skins of the heavens. [00:04:12] Speaker B: Right. So God can cause a flood, God can command the lightning. You know, God can tilt the water skins of the heavens. So these are God's control and all over God's creation. So here again, God is the weather person. So it is language that sounds meteorological, right? Yeah. And then the next image is about how God provides for God's creation. So these, of course, it's the animals that are mentioned, like the lions and the ravens and the young. And all of these will not survive unless God provides. Yeah, yeah. And so, but when you think of why the raven, why the lionesse? We don't feed these animals every day like we feed our domestic cats and dogs. Right. We imagine that these animals that live out in the wild take care of themselves, but actually what God is saying, no, I am providing for them. Yeah. [00:05:23] Speaker A: There's one behind. [00:05:24] Speaker B: Yeah. So this is God who cares, who provides and ensures that the survival of all beings is assured? Who assures the survival of all beings. Yes. [00:05:37] Speaker A: Sorry, Monica, I love what you said. Start about God speaking through nature, because I think sometimes in some christian traditions, we've had this separation in our minds between God and nature and this fear of even a fear of some kind of nature worship or worry around that, where I think often or certainly my lived reality, that being in nature can be an absolute place where there is communion with God. And particularly if people have gone through great suffering, as this character in this story has, the text actually says, this is where you might experience God. Like, it actually invites us into a bigger picture of where we might meet God. And in turn, that kind of makes me think around First nations wisdom of just being on country and without an expectation or an agenda, but being present and listening. [00:06:23] Speaker B: What is also important is that God's revelation here is not something that Job was listening to for the first time or did not know. I mean, job himself was aware that God is creator and provider. And so in a way, God is confirming. Yes, you know this already. [00:06:46] Speaker A: Yes. [00:06:46] Speaker B: You know, because through those questions, God says, didn't you know. Yeah, yeah. Job knew. Job knew these. This is what. This is what, you know, God. This is who God is. So, so, therefore. But Job also knows that job himself cannot do these things that God is doing. So the speech from the whirlwind is the speech of the creator, God the architect. [00:07:16] Speaker A: He doesn't get the answers that he wants about why he's going through this, but it's almost like he's invited into a bigger space of let yourself be a creature and let me be goddesse. Which is a very, very big shift in our thinking, because often we just want logical answers and neat solutions, and he doesn't get any of that. We don't get that in the text. [00:07:33] Speaker B: But I think a significant question is in verse 36 where God says, who has put wisdom in the inward parts or given understanding to the mind? The very fact that you can understand what I'm saying, I make that possible. [00:07:48] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. [00:07:51] Speaker B: So even wisdom is a gift from God. [00:07:53] Speaker A: Amen. Absolutely. [00:07:56] Speaker B: And it is goddesse who puts that wisdom in our beings, in our heart, and so on. So this is, in a way, this passage confronts those who think they know it all. [00:08:13] Speaker A: Yes. [00:08:13] Speaker B: Or who. Yeah. Who think that they have the power and they are making things happen. But here is God saying, no, absolutely. I am the one who makes all things possible. [00:08:29] Speaker A: Exactly. And at the end of this, the whole text, we get Job's friends being called to account because they did think they knew. They did think they can tell Job why he's suffering. It doesn't. So when anyone tells you why you're going through something, be very suspicious. [00:08:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So it's, you know, it is, in a way, a warning to people who think too much of themselves or their wisdom or their talent or who. Who think they are creators like God. Exactly. Who have control over creation or other human beings. So God is reminding them, you are a creature, too, and I'm the one who makes all things possible. [00:09:10] Speaker A: And there might be freedom in that if we took that seriously. Get over our God complexes. So should we look at the psalm? Psalm 104? [00:09:20] Speaker B: Yeah, actually, I've looked at psalm 91. Sally? [00:09:23] Speaker A: Oh, have you? [00:09:24] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, if that's. Yeah, we can jump in. So, I mean, psalm 104 is about. Is the psalm of creation. And so once again, there you can see where you know that God is. The psalmist is acknowledging that God is the Lord of creation. Okay. Here in psalm 91, which is perhaps the alternate psalm, is a psalm of assurance where God. I think this. This theme of God's provision and God's providence and care is also picked up in this particular psalm. And God is saying, if you are one who believes you are living, you are living in the shelter or the shadow of the most high, then you do, and you will enjoy God's protection. So God is home for all who believe. Protection from evil, protection from anxiety. We are all taken under God's protective wings. [00:10:28] Speaker A: You know, that wing imagery is so beautiful. [00:10:31] Speaker B: Yeah. So in the entire. If you look through the entire psalm, you will see that verses seven and eight are words of assurance of the Lord's protection. And God is saying, you need not fear. Why would you fear? And then, because the Lord is your home, and the Lord has all these angels watching over you and guarding you. And neither stones nor Lionsenhouse can harm you. And then from verses 14 to 16, you have a list of promises regarding the same protection that God offers to God's creatures. And you have to pay attention to the verbs that are used. I will deliver you. I will protect you. I will answer your prayers or questions. I will be with you in times of trouble. I will rescue you. I'll honor you. I will give long life and show you salvation. Or show them salvation. So anyone who believes in God and believes that he or she is under the care of God is assured of all these things. But yet the psalm, you know, might raise some questions for people whose lives are disturbed by experience, you know, and whose experiences are, are negative. So, okay, if God is watching over my home, why does a car suddenly crash through my bedroom wall? Or why is my child assaulted? Or why, you know, why have I been mugged or violated? Or why do I not have a job, you know, that can help put food on the table. [00:12:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:21] Speaker B: So these questions might arise if someone wants to. And those are legitimate questions. [00:12:28] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:12:29] Speaker B: Yeah. But the psalm does not offer any answers. But I guess that was not the intention of the psalms. [00:12:39] Speaker A: And that's why I love that there's a whole book of psalms, because there are other psalms that do directly address, I'm in despair. Where are you? I've got. And I think there's a beautiful discipline in reading a psalm, maybe daily, because you kind of go through all the emotions with the psalm writers and know that your experience, whether it's of consolation or desolation, you're not alone, that this is part of the experience of being. [00:13:00] Speaker B: And I think. I think what this may be, I may be stretching the psalm a little bit, but I think that even in those moments of despair or suffering or doubt, I think what God is saying is I am still with you. [00:13:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And what's interesting about that psalm is that that's what the devil picks up and quotes back at Jesus about. You know, the angels will catch you. And it's such an interesting way of misusing a text to say, it should all be happy for you if you really believe. And Jesus rebukes that. And I love that. That's a sign for us. This is not a text that everything will be awesome. [00:13:32] Speaker B: Yes. I was actually reminded of Robin's book. Even the devil quotes. That's right. [00:13:37] Speaker A: So this is the passage. [00:13:38] Speaker B: This is the passage, yes. [00:13:39] Speaker A: So it's not a promise of everything being awesome. And Jesus makes that really clear in his response to the accuser, to Satan. [00:13:46] Speaker B: Right? [00:13:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:47] Speaker B: So that's the psalm. Okay, so we go on to the episode reading. Okay. [00:14:04] Speaker A: So now let's talk about Hebrews. Hebrews is a really interesting text. Nearly didn't make it into the canon. I think we just need to flag that it's quite a complicated text because it's drawing so much from jewish traditions and understandings, but it's also drawing from greek philosophy. And I think that helps us understanding a bit more of that, helps us to approach the text within its own context. So obviously, there's lots of talk of the high priest and the temple and so on. And speaking about that, possibly in a more metaphorical sense, it seems like it's talking about the tabernacle rather than the present temple, but it's also drawing from platonic thought. And for those, it may or may not be familiar. So just to sketch it for a moment, because it can be quite strange to get your head around if it's new, the notion that there are, these are the true goods, the true beauties in the heavens, and that things on earth are like the replica of that. So you almost think like the original artwork and the photocopy, the black and white photocopy here. [00:14:59] Speaker B: Okay. [00:15:00] Speaker A: And so this sense of. So this is part of not. This is not jewish, this is not christian. This is the greek philosophical thought. But drawing from that to talk about Jesus as the true high priest, so not dismissing the jewish traditions from the past, but pointing out they died, you had to keep replacing them because, you know, they were human and they had sins and so on. But now in Christ, this is one way the author's seeking to make sense of the whole Christ event by saying he's the true priest, the high priest who hasn't sinned and will not die, has been raised and is the risen one. So it's like getting, it uses in Hebrews, the image of the anchor. So flinging up the anchor to heaven and pulling down heaven to earth is. [00:15:44] Speaker B: The kind of image, it's a topsy turvy thing. The anchor is not something that you throw up in the air. [00:15:50] Speaker A: It's so, it's such an amazing kind of sense of pulling the true reality, the heavenly reality into earth, like Christ doing that within Christ self. And so therefore he's the true priest. So in this passage we get about every high priest chosen from among mortals is put in charge, and so on and so on. But now we have the true priest who's able to do gently with ignorant in the way, since he himself is subject to weakness. So because the, the heavenly one has become human and experienced our suffering and the weaknesses can make is the perfect priest who can mediate for us. So it's quite sophisticated work that's going on here. And this assurance of saying, you know, this is the one, my son, in the order of Melchizedek. And then talking about in the days of his flesh, he offered up prayers and supplications, assuming, talking about the night before, Jesus betrayed perhaps, and the crucifixion, the state sanctioned murder, so that he was, he became the source of our life. So this is the one who cried out, who will be with us when we're crying out? So it's another take another way into this question of suffering. And again, not saying why it's happening, but saying, we have for us the eternal high priest who has been through our suffering. And so for some people, I think there's a huge deal of comfort that they draw from this particular understanding. [00:17:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't have a lot to say about this passage, but the one thing that I learned from reading it is that there's a description here of an authority figure who is human. So it's an earthly human figure, the high priest. But this is also someone who has been chosen by Goddesse. And this person has been chosen because of the humility of this person and making the one who makes sacrifices for not just his own, but for the sins of other, for the sins of other people as well. Yeah. Both the job passage and the Hebrews, in a way, are fairly abstract, aren't they? [00:18:02] Speaker A: Yeah, they are. And it's tricky if you were preaching on it because they need some unpacking in their own way. So you could definitely do that. But you'd need to spend some time with Hebrews, I think, because it can be so easy to take that of context. And I think it's at risk of being read in an anti semitic way where I don't think that's what's going on for the author. They're trying to say, drawing from this platonic kind of worldview, that it was okay, but now the true heavenly has been revealed within earth. So it is a more sophisticated argument. [00:18:32] Speaker B: Yeah. So basically the argument is that God is a powerful God, and God is the only one who knows all the answers and does what is right in the world. And it is God who chooses people and puts them in particular positions of power, of responsibility, let us say not power. And so the choice is actually God's in a way. I wonder sometimes if the passages in a way with the focus on God is actually diminishing the agency of human beings. What do you think? [00:19:20] Speaker A: Wow, that's a great question. Well, certainly questions of power come up in our mark reading. I think in Hebrews, it's certainly the focus is on because it would appear that there's increasing persecution, probably from authorities. It's a note of assurance about the true power resides in Christ, and he is the humble one who knows what you've been through. So I think that's the focus. So they're trying to assure people in their own suffering. So maybe not diminish, but put it in a wider context. [00:19:49] Speaker B: Okay. [00:19:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, but Mark, so this is funny. I think we're supposed to laugh, Monica, in this whole section. So in mark eight to ten, three times, Jesus tells us, the disciples, he's gonna be betrayed, handed over, killed in this state, saying, or killed doesn't go into the details yet. And raised. So it's raised as well. And each time they freak out. So it's the first time Peter freaks out. This is before the transfiguration. He's like, seriously, you can't go through with this. Second time, the disciples have a fight about who's the greatest. Like, they just can't stand this conversation. They don't want to know about Jesus talking about humility. They were expecting Messiah to come with victory. Maybe they're hoping for Rome to be overthrown, you know, and they want to know who's the greatest. Cause this is going to be awesome, and I'm going to be with him. And now the third time, James and John want to know if they can sit in the powerful, like, on either side, which is, as we know, the sights of power. It's ridiculous that every time Jesus talks about the truth, that he's the one who chooses to use his power for others, not over others, that he is the God one, but he's not going to retaliate. He's going to endure the violence rather than meted out to others. They fight about power like, it's just extraordinary. So I love this passage. [00:21:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So obviously these are two very insecure men who want to be assured that, you know, that they will be quite close to him. [00:21:20] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:21:22] Speaker B: Quite close to the seat of power. [00:21:24] Speaker A: And it's like, really? Do. You don't know what you're asking. Like, he tries to be honest throughout the gospel too. Jesus is like, if you follow me, it's gonna be hard. There's gonna be suffering. He doesn't promise them that. It's gonna be awesome. And he's like, really? You want this? And then he talks about how to use power, you know, among the gentiles, those whom they recognize as their rulers lord it over them, and the great ones are tyrants over them. How history goes on and on in the same way, but it's not so among you. Whoever wishes to become great among you must be your servant. Like, this is a radical reversal of powers so that those with power or who want power, to put that aside, to use their power for others. [00:22:02] Speaker B: Right. The question is, you know, Jesus statement here, the fact that Jesus uplifts or calls to attention structures of authority in the gentile populations and says that they are tyrants and et cetera, et cetera, but it's not so amongst us. You know, we will be. We are different in the context of what's happening in the world today. [00:22:29] Speaker A: It's huge. The challenge doesn't leave us. [00:22:32] Speaker B: No, no. Who are the gentiles in today's world where there are people functioning as tyrants. [00:22:43] Speaker A: And people longing for tyrants, it feels like fear is really captivating communities and cultures, so that people wanting a strong man to lead, whether they're telling the truth or not, is irrelevant. The call. And in the church, I think across denominations, we're going through massive transition. And so fear can really captivate spellbinders almost. And so the notion and that then we can want strong leaders again. As strong as in this kind of Jesus description of tyrants. I don't mean actually genuinely strong. So the choice to continue to trust that the crucified Risen Messiah is at work and present and we're called to be like him and to use our power for lifting up, I think that's an ongoing challenge in the church, in our families, in our friendship circles. [00:23:30] Speaker B: Yeah. At the risk of being misunderstood, I mean, Jesus was addressing two hebrew men. Yeah. You know, and therefore, all the non Hebrews are the Gentiles. And so. And today it's, you know, Netanyahu who. Who is showcasing the power of Israel in ways that might be disturbing to a lot of people. And so who is the one who is acting as the tyrant here? So, yeah, so I think the statement is controversial and needs to be unpacked and reflected upon a little bit. But I do understand what Jesus is saying, that it depends on how you unpack or understand the word gentiles. Is it Hebrew versus non Hebrew? Or is it something else? Maybe structures of power where decision making is not democratic, is not. Yeah. Is authoritarian. [00:24:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think, like, in Matthew's gospel, certainly Jesus is equally critiquing his fellow jewish people and particularly the leaders who are misusing their powers. So I would read that as a. A challenge to all of us about how we use our power and that the kingdom that Jesus calls us to pray for is a very different looking kingdom. [00:24:57] Speaker B: Right. [00:24:57] Speaker A: And so how do we take that seriously? Right. [00:24:59] Speaker B: And then, of course, Jesus overturns their expectations. So it's not a king, you know, or a ruler in that sense, you know, coming with the power of the army or weaponry. [00:25:11] Speaker A: Exactly. All their dreams of that are dashed. [00:25:14] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [00:25:15] Speaker A: And I think we need to be confronted by. That's why I love this gospel, because it keeps bringing us back to the question of, this is not just a theological idea to agree with or not. Jesus is king. It's like, if this is the king and this is what the king looks like, then all of our understandings of power have to be remade. [00:25:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And so basically here, I guess, the disciples question is coming out of, as you have already said, this notion of a messiah figure who will come, you know, with a crown. [00:25:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:25:41] Speaker B: And will overthrow Rome. And they wanted to participate in that glory. [00:25:45] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:25:46] Speaker B: That comes with victory, you know, and the privilege and etcetera that comes with it as well. [00:25:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:51] Speaker B: And Jesus is saying, no, that's not who I am. Yeah. And it's, you know, I'd like you to say something a little about. About this drinking from the cup of baptism. Yeah. Well, you know, so this is like, if. [00:26:07] Speaker A: So this is interesting if it goes back to. We don't know if it goes back to Jesus saying this or not, but how early is this linking of baptism to suffering? I mean, it's a really interesting question. And where is that whole notion from? Because Jesus calling people to baptize people, as in Matthew's gospel. That's not part of Mark, and that's not the kind of way he's using the language of baptism here either. So it's a really good question, but I'm not sure that we can be confident about what it is, except maybe it's that kind of tradition of, you know, the cup you've given me to drink God, like, if it's that kind of sense. [00:26:43] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I can't say much more other than I have been given to understand that this baptism is a reference to the suffering that, you know, it is, but. [00:26:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, definitely, I think a reference to the suffering. But why linking it to baptism in that way. Yeah. And that's how Paul uses it, too. So maybe it's quite early. Yeah. [00:27:02] Speaker B: Okay. [00:27:02] Speaker A: Yeah. One last thing I'd love to say about this passage is the ransom. The theology that's going on here in Mutt's gospel, I think, is very much to do with ransom from cosmic evil. This is the understanding of the cross here. This is not linked to notions of sin. This is about liberation. Jesus somehow freeing people from cosmic evil, which is a much bigger conversation, but I just wanted to flag that. [00:27:25] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. And then the uplifting of the disciples, you know, to be servants, as Jesus is a servant to them or to the community. So, yeah, so here you have the passages in Hebrews and in job where God speaks through the whirlwind and God is asserting God's power and control over creation, over human beings. That image is now different. [00:28:06] Speaker A: It is. Well, it's shocking. I think sometimes we forget how shocking christian faith is that we proclaim, Christians proclaim that the same God who composed the universe chooses to become flesh, but that, I mean, heaps of greek and roman gods become flesh. That's not so shocking. But chooses to allow self to, well, first hang out with people who are considered low lives and serve them, wash their feet in John's gospel and so on, and heal them and feed them and so on, and then chooses to allow self to be brutalized by the empire. That's our faith is extraordinary. [00:28:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Now I can understand Judas reaction as well. [00:28:41] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:28:42] Speaker B: Are you crazy? Yeah, exactly. [00:28:44] Speaker A: And yet this is it. So, friends, we have to wrestle with it. [00:28:48] Speaker B: Yeah. So this is a God who is. The text today is basically about God being the Almighty God. Yeah. But also, I think as a preacher, one would have to deal with the tensions that rise between these two very, very contrasting images of who God is and what God is calling for and the style of leadership. [00:29:11] Speaker A: Exactly. And the paradox and the beauty of that. Enjoy, everybody. Thank you. By the well is brought to you by Pilgrim Theological College and the uniting church in Australia. It's produced by Adrian Jackson. Thanks for listening.