B249 Reign of Christ

[00:00:05] Speaker A: You're listening to by the well, a lectionary based podcast for preachers recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri people. Hi, everyone, I'm Fran Barber. [00:00:18] Speaker B: And I'm Robyn Whittaker. [00:00:20] Speaker A: And this week is Christ the King. And we're going to be focusing on readings 2 Samuel 23:1 7 Revelation 1, verses 4b to 8, and the Gospel of John, chapter 18, verses 33 to 37. [00:00:38] Speaker B: And we're delighted today to have a colleague of ours, the Reverend Dr. David Kim, here who's going to be part of our conversation as we unpack these readings. David, tell people just a little bit about you and what your role is in the Uniting Church Synod here at the moment. [00:00:55] Speaker C: Before I joined the Victor Synod, I was in the congregational ministry about like 25 years in South Korea, in America, and also in Queensland. And early this year I moved to a Victoria and Tasmania Synod and to continue my ministry as the Multicultural Ministries Coordinator. [00:01:16] Speaker B: So you've preached on at least three continents then, maybe more. Do you still preach much today? And how do you sort of approach preaching as someone who now comes in as a guest versus being in a congregation, perhaps? [00:01:28] Speaker C: Yeah, because of my role as the Multicultural Ministries Coordinator, I visit different churches on every Sunday and so sometimes I get to preach at least twice a month. [00:01:41] Speaker A: All right, that's quite a lot. [00:01:42] Speaker B: It's quite a lot. [00:01:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:01:44] Speaker B: And does it give your preaching a focus to kind of draw out the elements in the text that have to do with culture and race and multiculturalism, or does it just depend on the theme of the day? [00:01:54] Speaker C: I believe so, because before I go to each cold congregations, I need to study and then I need to study their, like, you know, histories and, you know. [00:02:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:04] Speaker C: And then like in a cultural background, especially in certain words they prefer to hear. [00:02:10] Speaker B: Yes. And for listeners who aren't familiar with the Uniting Church's lingo here, CALD is culturally and linguistically diverse. So it is about intentional engagement and support with our congregations who are not predominantly Anglo or English speaking. [00:02:27] Speaker A: So we're really grateful and pleased that you're joining this conversation today, David, on the occasion of Christ the King. [00:02:36] Speaker B: Tell us about that, Fran. [00:02:37] Speaker A: Well, it's the week, as everyone out there will very well know, leading into before Advent, the end of our lectionary year. And we might think with something like a lectionary and a festival or an occasion with this kind of title, that it's been there since forever, since, you know, Jesus. But actually Christ the King first was suggested and implemented by Pope pius xi in 1925, who in his wisdom was observing the growing secularism around the world and the diminishment of the voice of Christ, I guess, and also wanted to reaffirm that Christ's kingship remains as pertinent, even more so, and that God in Christ is sort of sovereign over all of creation and not the human kings in all their faults and so on. And so it was a recalling to the Gospel, I guess. And so for us too, looking towards the birth of a very different king in Advent, in the Incarnation and Christmas, it's. It's leading us into that. [00:03:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And even though I think we don't. Well, unless you're English, we don't use a lot of language of king anymore, at least in most Western countries. That's probably. [00:03:58] Speaker A: I mean, we have a king, don't we, by virtue of our. Of our commonwealth status. [00:04:03] Speaker B: But I think it's also a helpful way to think about leadership and the kinds of communities we create as we think of king and kingdom. Just noting some people find the language of king and the gendered nature of that really problematic. But we're talking about rulers and leaders and the empires they build. [00:04:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I don't find it easy language. [00:04:22] Speaker B: Easy language. [00:04:22] Speaker A: No, no. But as you say, it is about different sorts of, I suppose, kingdoms or ways of ruling that we live with. [00:04:33] Speaker B: So shall we get into David in second Samuel? We're right at the end of the Samuel narrative about David. And these are kind of the last words, really, or the last tribute to this anointed, special, chosen, famous king. Not unproblematic king. [00:04:51] Speaker A: No. And I will say, heralded by Hannah last week. Yes. In the. So we've got. We've had the first part of Samuel and the very last part in two weeks. And Hannah foreshadowing the birth of this. Of David. And now we've come to the end of his kingdom. [00:05:08] Speaker B: So I don't know, David or Fran. What did you notice in this second Samuel 23 text? What words or themes emerged for you in terms of David and the kingship he had? [00:05:22] Speaker A: For me, not so much the names of God stood out for me. There's heaps of different names of God in this reading. And I did think in terms of a very quick preaching point, it was names of God, the Strong one of Israel, God of Israel, the rock of Israel. [00:05:40] Speaker B: I didn't notice that anyway. [00:05:42] Speaker C: And I pay more attention to 2nd Samuel 23, verse 5, because it's an inversion sentence saying that it's not my house, like this with God. He could have said, like, my house is like this with God. But he uses inversion, which means, like, he knew for this for sure. [00:06:03] Speaker A: Oh, I see. [00:06:04] Speaker C: So no hesitation at all, because that's why the title is the Oracle of David, the prophecy of David. It's not from me, but it's from God. [00:06:12] Speaker B: Yes. [00:06:13] Speaker C: And then, so verse five, you continue. Will he not cause to prosper? He was so sure about this. [00:06:21] Speaker B: Yeah. He's asking these almost rhetorical questions, the answer to which is already a given. [00:06:26] Speaker C: In a way of persuading. Listen to me, I'm telling you the truth. [00:06:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:30] Speaker C: Am I not telling you the truth? Hear me out. So I hear you know, this kind of, you know, voice tone. [00:06:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very rhetorically powerful. [00:06:39] Speaker B: Yeah. What struck me is just the sense of promise in this. So we've got very lofty language for David, and he is remembered in the tradition as, you know, the great king of Israel. Really. But also this. This promise, I mean, in that verse five. Right. Part of the surety there is, he's made me an everlasting covenant. So it's about David, but it's also actually about God's promise that Israel will not be left without a king or a God that cares for them. And, you know, who will. Yeah. Help in my. And, you know, all that language that follows there. [00:07:21] Speaker A: I mean, what do we do with the fact that a lot of David's behaviour was godless? [00:07:27] Speaker B: Yes. [00:07:28] Speaker A: I mean, maybe that's a rhetorical question or an important thing to just remember. I mean, he says here, but the godless are like thorns that are thrown away. And I don't. You know, there's a faithfulness to David, obviously, but. [00:07:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, maybe the psalm is helpful here, because Psalm 132, which the lectionary pairs with this, actually is this kind of plea. It's written in the voice of David, whether David himself. I mean, he's often attributed with writing the Psalms, whether he actually wrote this one or not, but it's. It's in his voice and it's a plea to kind of remember the good things David has done. So, I mean, you could play with that as a preacher, if we're reflecting on whether it's leadership or the end of leadership or even the end of life, what are the good things you've done that you would hope God would remember? And, I mean, I guess implied in that is an acknowledgement that not everything has been good. So please, God, remember the good things. Because, of course, I've also sinned. [00:08:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:08:27] Speaker C: He was a popular king because even though he may have been unfaithful to God, but at least towards his people, he provided a lot. He provided the security, he provided. He united whole nation. And also he provided the land. [00:08:41] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:42] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. [00:08:43] Speaker B: Yeah, he did. Yeah. And he shored up this. Yeah. So he's remembered and it's a reminder. No leader's perfect. [00:08:50] Speaker A: No. [00:08:51] Speaker B: I mean, maybe the Jesus, David, contrast is helpful here. [00:08:54] Speaker A: Yeah. But I like that confessional sort of posture you were naming there, Robyn, about how we present before God and one another, you know, in leadership of all forms, if we've done, you know, less than we might have or, you know. [00:09:11] Speaker B: Yep. [00:09:13] Speaker C: So having said that, you know, one thread that I found throughout this, you know, Bible readings is that the land, the home, and then, you know, certain words being repeated here is for instance, like at the rock dwelling place, resting place, Ephrathah, which is named for the, you know, Bethlehem. [00:09:33] Speaker B: Yes. [00:09:33] Speaker C: It's the place. And also the fields of jar and kingdom. [00:09:37] Speaker B: So part of a king's role is to create this place. Is that what you're saying? [00:09:42] Speaker C: Who's going to bring this and who's going to maintain this and who's going to give people an access to live in and dwell in these kind of places? [00:09:51] Speaker A: You're describing a shepherd. [00:09:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:09:53] Speaker A: As David was. [00:09:54] Speaker C: And I believe John's reading is kind of making connection to that. And am I not Jewish? Conversation with the, you know, pilots is in the. Jesus answered, my kingdom does not belong to this world. [00:10:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:07] Speaker C: So you cannot give my people the kingdom. [00:10:12] Speaker B: Yes. You cannot. Yeah. That's an interesting way to read that in light of the land, because I've got lots of questions about what Jesus meant when he said that, but we're jumping ahead. [00:10:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:23] Speaker B: We can go there next if you like. But. [00:10:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Is there any final thoughts for this Samuel reading that you haven't shared? [00:10:33] Speaker B: The only other one I noticed is that David is depicted as the vessel through whom God speaks. So if we're thinking of human leadership and human kings in the biblical tradition, and of course, Jesus will embody that perfectly. But you know that the. The God anointed leader is one through whom there's something there about the self emptying and the one, you know, creating space, it's through whom God speaks, not your own agenda or your own. Yeah. Which of course, again, David had the prophets around him calling him on that and reminding him of that throughout his leadership. [00:11:11] Speaker C: That's right. So, you know, a particular phrase came to me, was one and only one and only whom was anointed by God. [00:11:21] Speaker B: Yes, yeah. [00:11:24] Speaker A: And then leading obviously to the ultimate self emptying of the Messiah, the fulfillment of the covenant is Christianly understood. [00:11:33] Speaker B: Yep. [00:11:35] Speaker A: Okay. Shall we move on to the revelation? Revelation 1:4b to 8. So I'm going to suggest that Robyn, you take the floor at this point. Giving Revelation is your love and passion and profession. [00:11:54] Speaker B: Yes. Best book in the Bible. [00:11:56] Speaker A: So John's writing to the seven churches that are in Asia. Yeah. [00:12:01] Speaker B: And what the lectionary has given us here is really a doxology. So I don't know why the lectionary leaves out 4A. I mean, that's the framing is John's writing to these seven churches. And what he writes is this greeting that's. It's like a greeting in a doxology. Grace to you and peace. But it's deep, deep, deep theology here in the. In John's images. So God is firstly the one who is and who was and who is to come. So we have this triune formula which is John's way of saying he's everlasting or eternal. [00:12:30] Speaker A: And Exodus 3, it's an echo of Exodus 3. [00:12:33] Speaker B: Yes, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, this is going to be dripping with Old Testament imagery because that's what this author does, the seven spirit spirits before the throne. So we're going to meet them more fully in the chapters ahead in Revelation. But God is primarily embodied as the enthroned one, and the seven spirits before his throne roam the earth. So they're like the eyes and ears of God, the presence of God. So seven being the number of perfection. But it's really important. God is this enthroned deity. So we're thinking about kings and power and rulers. [00:13:04] Speaker A: It's the same category. [00:13:05] Speaker B: Yeah. And Jesus Christ is of course described as this faithful witness, or the language in Greek is martyr, the faithful martyr, the firstborn of the dead and ruler of the kings of the earth. So he is both a reference there to his crucifixion and great sacrifice, and also his rules, so his ascension. So this author will hold both of those things that are quite paradoxical together. But the thing that really struck me, having said that, if we're thinking about what kind of king is Jesus and what kind of kingdom, he establishes the work of Jesus or the to him who loves us and freed us here is. Could be addressed to God or Jesus. It's not totally clear, probably Jesus, because it then refers to his God and what follows. The work of the kind of king Jesus is is one who loves and who liberates from sin. Those are the two key things. And the loving and the liberating allows him to then establish his own empire or kingdom, which is full of priests. So it's this kind of priestly, holy worship based kingdom, which I think in this author's mind, there's definitely a political resonance going on here, but I think if we draw that into the contemporary world, it is one way to think about what faith communities might be called to do. In Protestant tradition, we have language of priesthood of all believers, so there's something there about equality and mutuality. But primarily communities that are loving and liberating were some of the things that came to mind what I would draw on. But what did you two notice? As people who don't maybe spend your entire lives reading Revelation, did anything stand out for you? [00:14:50] Speaker A: It's a very encouraging, hopeful passage, one that can be read to any community in various levels of first world to third world to so called distress. [00:15:02] Speaker B: Yep. [00:15:03] Speaker A: But I was struck by the incredibly evocative language about God, the resonance with Exodus verse 5 that you named about the naming of who Jesus is. [00:15:15] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. And then I was intrigued by verse 6. It says, and made us a kingdom. Instead of gave us a kingdom, made us a kingdom. So maybe kingdom is not a place, but it's people of God. So, you know, I just, you know, couldn't move on because of this. What made us a kingdom then? Okay, then maybe we are somehow king or queen, like Christians who can welcome open the door for people. [00:15:47] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think that reminds me of the phrase living in the world. No, living in the world, but not of the world. So that we know that we live in a flawed, broken environment. But we are being called forth by God to live as if Christ is here now because Christ is. Does that make so that we are made a kingdom? [00:16:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it goes to the point you were raising before David about like what John's gospel is doing with this kingdom is not of my world, whatever Jesus is doing there. Because for me this is then less about place. Although ultimately the vision in the book of Revelation is God's heavenly kingdom will come down and be established on earth. But there is something about the nowness of the kingdom. We are already made a kingdom, and a kingdom whose goal it is is to serve God. Right. So that's a pretty good descriptor of what a Christian community could be, which. [00:16:46] Speaker A: Is a threatening thing for an actual king in the moment. So I don't know as Much or much about the immediate historical context here. But this is a call, this is provocative. If a king, if a worldly king is overhearing a community being told this. [00:17:03] Speaker C: About God, I think they're very radical and then progressive here because if we say that we are part of the kingdom of God and then we have a key to open the door and we can open the door for anyone. [00:17:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:16] Speaker C: But you know, it's just scary, you know, scary for some people who has the privileges that I have a key. And I'm not going to open the door for anyone because the things that I have is all mine. I don't want to share. [00:17:29] Speaker A: That reminds me, you know, we're having a conversation in the light of the outcome of the US election and. [00:17:35] Speaker C: Oh, let's not go there. [00:17:36] Speaker A: Well, just the imprimatur that people are going to be sent away, sent out of America, like getting rid of all migrants and like how. I mean, completely awful that is. But the sort of radical welcome that's being described here of opening, as you say, we are made a kingdom, we are open in liberative love for others for the sake of the world, is such a different message from the one that's going across our screens. [00:18:02] Speaker B: And I mean, it is probably good to remember that contrast. A lot of people don't think it's a massive issue in Australia. I think we're heading in the same direction. But of course what we've seen in America is a. Is a strand of Christianity that wants to literally establish a king kingdom. They want theocracy, Christians in every level of government making everyone do what they want. I don't think that is the kind of kingdom imagined here or in the gospel. So I think holding on to that, it. It's not to say it doesn't have real world implications. I don't want to simply spiritualize it, but making sure I don't see any of these texts we delving in today as sort of mandates for Christians to take over the government or. [00:18:48] Speaker A: Oh, I wasn't suggesting that. [00:18:49] Speaker B: No, you're not. But I think it's really important to kind of name that. [00:18:53] Speaker A: I was thinking, I was thinking about an alternative order and witness in every way, which is a threat, which is a subversive of those things. [00:19:00] Speaker C: Yeah, being inclusive and open. [00:19:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. Right. [00:19:03] Speaker C: I mean, there's so many people being discriminated and then, you know, it's because of the, because of, you know, their gender and then their status, social status and race and then, you know, it's like, what else is like, you know, sexual preferences and all sort of so many reasons and people being bullied. [00:19:21] Speaker A: And I don't know whether I've mentioned this in a podcast before, but one of the more moving pastoral encounters or engagements I had was a baptism for a child in my last congregation who was not being recognised by Australia nor his refugee parents country. And, you know, in the sermon I said that. So this country won't accept him as a citizen. We will not. But right. Today he becomes a citizen of heaven in his baptism and there was sort of this audible sort of sigh or recognition in the community. That's what we're doing here. And this is. This is big. This is radical. But I think we can forget it sometimes. [00:20:01] Speaker B: No, that's really. Well, moving and powerful and a reminder again, in the context of Revelation, where John's probably writing to Christian communities that are minority if they're living in the Roman Empire, not many of them would have been citizens. So of various status. But without the power and privileges of proper citizenship. So to say you belong to God's kingdom in which you have a role as a priest. Right. Is an incredibly powerful thing in the way you've just named in the contemporary. [00:20:36] Speaker C: World and which has been given already. [00:20:38] Speaker B: Yes. [00:20:39] Speaker A: We don't. [00:20:39] Speaker C: It's not coming. We have received. [00:20:42] Speaker B: Yes. So shall we move to John's go? Is there anything else in Revelation we want to explore? [00:20:49] Speaker A: I think we've given it a good go. But you're the one who would have the last word. [00:20:54] Speaker B: No, I mean, just it's a word about reading Revelation. There is a lot of language of power and dominion and ruling in this text, but I think that's always got to be held alongside the kind of stuff we see there in verse 5. It is rule in order to love and liberate. [00:21:16] Speaker A: And then isn't it. Isn't it also a question of what is holding dominion over us, really? [00:21:21] Speaker B: Yes. [00:21:22] Speaker A: Like it's not that dominion itself is wrong or not there. It's just what is it that we bow down before. [00:21:30] Speaker B: Yep. And we're free from those powers and liberated for God's purpose. [00:21:36] Speaker A: Let us move on to the Gospel of John, chapter 18, verses 33 to 37. So we're in Jesus trial in John. [00:21:56] Speaker B: And Pilate has just. In the previous scene, he's had a conversation with some of the Jewish leaders who are responsible for arresting Jesus. And now he comes to interrogate Jesus. And I think it's striking that the first question is, are you the king of the Jews and of Course, in the historical context there is a king of the Jews, right. There's King Herod and the Herodian family who were kind of arguably at this time puppets of the Roman Empire. So they were a nominal king, a sort of a historical kingly line in this part of the world. If we're in imagining Israel and the surrounds, regardless of where John's gospel's written, this is imagined to be in Jerusalem. So that very question is again not pure, maybe not even a spiritual question. [00:22:49] Speaker A: It's actually quite a political question and very loaded. [00:22:52] Speaker C: Yeah, I believe so, yeah. [00:22:54] Speaker B: So what did you two notice or what would you draw out here? [00:22:58] Speaker A: Do you want to go first, David? [00:23:00] Speaker C: Well, it's in Pilate's attitude towards Jesus. And verse 33 says he summoned Jesus. Yep, he's summoned, just like Esther being summoned by the king. [00:23:13] Speaker A: I mean he's all powerful and he's. [00:23:14] Speaker C: Apparently he's showing up to his power. You know, you people saying that Jesus is the king, but I am much higher and I have more power. So he summoned Jesus and the question is, are you the king of the Jews? I don't think so. [00:23:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:31] Speaker A: What do you think he was expecting to hear? [00:23:33] Speaker C: Well, it's more like, as I said, his attitude was like showing off, like, oh Jesus, look at me, I am, I am the power over you and your people. [00:23:46] Speaker A: And Jesus responds to the question with a question very like Jesus. [00:23:50] Speaker B: He does this a lot. Yeah, yeah, but it's also, it's a Jesus response is almost a bit cynical. You know, do you ask this on your own or did others? [00:23:58] Speaker A: Well that's where he's well aware of the undercurrents going on. And Pilate will literally wash his hands of any responsibility and hand Jesus over, you know, I suppose showing his ultimate power. But then I mean, obviously in the overcoming of death, Jesus shows what real power is or life giving power. But we come in verse 36, David, to that verse that you named earlier in our conversation. My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom belonged to this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over. So you know, we start to get very explicit the contrast between what Pilate and the authorities represent and what Jesus actually does. [00:24:44] Speaker C: Yeah. So you know, you mentioned about first 36 and they tried to make a connection to the Revelation reading. [00:24:50] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [00:24:50] Speaker C: So my King does not belong to this world, but maybe to my people. Yes, my kingdom does belong to my people. And you know, First Corinthians says, you know, the living body of Christ. Yes, my People. [00:25:08] Speaker B: Yep. So the king. Yes. So the kingdom now. I mean thinking earlier of what you said about Samuel, the kingdom now is less about place and it's more about people. It's located in these gathered communities or the, in the Jesus followers. Yeah. I never know what quite to make of My kingdom is not from here. And of course in John you have these contrasts, these dualisms between heaven and earth and light and dark and this world and God's world kind of thing. So it could have that spatial dimension in terms of my kingdoms, heavenly, not earthly. It could also have that temporal dimension of my kingdom is future, not here yet. And I suspect knowing John's gospel, it's a little bit of both going on. I don't know how you read that. That's not to negate what you just said though, David, about it. It's in the people. Right. So it is here in some sense, I think. [00:26:04] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:26:04] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean the several movies is, you know, dealing with the, at the end of the world and I'm the last person on earth and then towards end of the, you know those movies saying that, well, we need people, we need friends, we need family. So even if like we're living in our own kingdom, but what if only, you know, just by myself. [00:26:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:24] Speaker C: Would it still call it like a paradise? You know, the heaven place, you know? Yeah, we need, we need people and we need friends. [00:26:32] Speaker B: Yes. And so many movies depict heaven as like an individual walking along a beach or something. And it's, it drives me crazy because it's the opposite of a biblical idea of kingdom or heavenly community or whatever language you want to use, which is all, it's all about the people in the community. Yeah, it's not about. And even though the introvert in me quite likes the idea of being on a beach by myself, but you know, that's not the kingdom, that's apparently not Jesus kingdom, unfortunately. And of course then we get to this truth stuff. [00:27:05] Speaker A: The famous, I mean that stands out to me from this reading just again because of the context we're in now where truth has just become a commodity that we have fake news that's readily available, we have all access to all platforms of so called information, but we can't trust most of it. And we now have a phrase that's common called fake news. We have AI where we can't even, we can't trust the picture. Well before that we couldn't trust the pictures we see because of altering those. But then AI can just create something out of nothing. [00:27:39] Speaker B: Yep. [00:27:40] Speaker A: So I think that what is truth? And the response that you can have an intellectual response to that which philosophers and those of us, not even philosophers, could have a go at, we've got truth as revelation in Christ, which is who is a person and relationship. And then there's the truth that. That in that second sense, a third sense that gets you into action to live. So I don't know. For me, that's the question that stands out in this reading. And I'm not saying I know exactly where I'd go with it. No. [00:28:16] Speaker B: But it's. I was recently with a colleague before a Senate inquiry on behalf of the Uniting Church, and there's currently a bill before the Senate on misinformation and disinformation in the digital space. [00:28:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:28:30] Speaker B: So it's an attempt to say social media platforms, digital platforms need to actually have systems for removing misinformation that is verifiably false and causes harm. So it's not just saying you can't have your opinion, but it's things that are actually harmful to society or groups in the society. What fascinated me when we were preparing for that is all the other Christians groups also submitting information before the Senate inquiry were against the bill because they don't trust the government to ultimately oversee what constitutes truth. We were in favor of it. And it was kind of staggering to me that you've got other Christians and I understand distrust of government, but you've got other Christians saying, no, this is going to squash our free speech. And I'm like, why would we not as Christians be for truth and not doing harm? Like, it seems like such a no brainer, but that's the world we're in. Last point. And it ties to this, this word for truth, Alethia in the Greek has a sense to it of something that is dependable, something that. Yeah. As truthful. Well, that structure you can rely on. [00:29:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:52] Speaker B: So truth is something that has some, I don't know, gravitas or weight. I'm gesturing with my hands here. That's of course completely unhelpful for a podcast, but for me that helps sort of ground it in that it's not a fleeting thing, it's not a harmful thing. It's got to be something that's dependable and of course. [00:30:10] Speaker A: And not calculated and not deceiving. [00:30:15] Speaker B: No, not attempting to deceive, but still findable. [00:30:20] Speaker C: Not just, you know, the one off and just one. Just one, you know, setting. Well, you know, it's. Let me tell you my story and when I joined the Uniting Church in Australia about 20 years ago. And then someone introduced Uniting Church to me and saying that Uniting Church is not a denomination, it's a movement. [00:30:40] Speaker B: Okay, so. [00:30:42] Speaker C: Oh, movement. Okay, then we can journey together. I don't need to, you know, just, you know, fit myself into the structure of the denomination. A denomination. But, you know, this is movement. Then let me continue to do some research on your movement and I like to be part of it. [00:31:03] Speaker B: But there's something. There's got to be a consistency in that. [00:31:06] Speaker C: Consistency and longevity and. Which is not temporary, but permanent. [00:31:10] Speaker B: Yes. [00:31:11] Speaker C: So truth cannot be temporary. It has to be permanent. [00:31:15] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Which is who Christ is for us. [00:31:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And of course, I mean, the way John defines it. Well, or Jesus in this passage is people who belong to truth. So here there's again this slightly strange sense of you can belong to the truth. You can kind of be part of what is good and dependable. It's those who listen. So it's relational. [00:31:38] Speaker A: Right. [00:31:38] Speaker B: Are those who listen to the voice of Jesus. So it's relational in terms of both community and relation to God. So I don't know how that helps anyone preach this. [00:31:48] Speaker A: Well, it's going to have to be enough because it's time to close our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us this week. [00:31:55] Speaker C: David, thanks for inviting me. [00:32:00] Speaker B: By. The well is brought to you by Pilgrim Theological College and the Uniting Church in Australia. It's produced by Adrian Jackson. Thanks for listening.