C204 Advent 4

[00:00:05] Speaker A: You're listening to by the well, a lectionary based podcast for preachers recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri people. Hello, everyone, I'm Fran Barber. [00:00:18] Speaker B: I'm Dorothy Lee. [00:00:20] Speaker A: And this week, the fourth week of Advent, Dorothy and I will be focusing in particular on Micah, chapter 5, verses 2 to 5A, and the Gospel of Luke, chapter 1, verses 39, all the way to verse 55, which includes the visitation between Mary and Elizabeth and the Magnificat. We might have a brief foray into Hebrews. So this is the week of love, Dorothy. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Yes, it's also the week focus on Mary as well. So it's both. [00:00:56] Speaker A: It's both. So we begin with Micah, a prophet, you were telling me, from the rural parts. Not a big town man. [00:01:06] Speaker B: No. Not a city dweller at all. [00:01:08] Speaker A: So suspicious of the wealthy and powerful, which you've got to be. You've got to have that in a prophet. [00:01:14] Speaker B: And eighth to the seventh century bce. So a contemporary of first Isaiah, of Amos and Hosea. So an earlier prophet than Zephaniah, which we looked at last week and yeah, very much rural prophet who looks at the elite in Jerusalem with profound distrust and disfavour. [00:01:38] Speaker A: And it's a time of. I mean, it's always a time of enormous upheaval, but there's a lot of economic hardship and displacement. The rulers of Judah, I think I read somewhere, were paying the Assyrian rulers to keep them at bay and acquiring those funds from the poor, those who can least afford it. Which has echoes to what happens today. [00:02:02] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It's very much against the privileged classes and the way that they're exploiting the poor for their own political gain. [00:02:13] Speaker A: So we begin with reference to a very tiny little town of no import thus far. Bethlehem. Yes, one of the little clans of Judah. And there's vision here of the future that we will see coming in this passage that's really rooted in the past. The origin is from old, from ancient days. And there seems to be from that a kind of a word of comfort, perhaps, for those living in the suffering of the current time. [00:02:48] Speaker B: Yes, I think about that because it's reinforcing the covenant, particularly with David, of course, because Bethlehem is the town that David comes from, so it's reinforcing the notion of the covenant. [00:03:04] Speaker A: Are there any language points in this that we need to take note of? [00:03:08] Speaker B: I think the imagery in verse three is really important. The imagery of labor. So once again, as with Zephaniah last week, we have a sense of judgment. There's been judgment against Israel. And in fact, Micah, I mean, he must have been a very, very bright boy, rural though he may have been. He was no stooge, no fool, no slouch. No slouch. And he actually prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem. He foresaw it, and. Which may have been by divine inspiration, but may also have been just human now as well, or a bit of both. And he foresaw the exile, that the people would be taken into exile, but he also believed strongly that there would be a return. So there's a sense of. The image he uses, I think, very powerfully is that of labor. A woman in labor, she goes through labor pains and it's a period of. It can be last for days, actually, of great suffering. And yet it ends. It ends with, hopefully, the birth of the child. So that becomes a powerful image, particularly in relation to the Gospel. [00:04:28] Speaker A: Yeah, it does indeed. And it's also an image, too, that suggests there is an ending to God's judgment, which is a conversation we were having in last week's episode. [00:04:42] Speaker B: Yes, that's right. Yeah. And once again, the judgment, the end result of the judgment is life. It's to bring about life. And just like a woman going through labor pains is actually producing life, you know, at least in an ideal situation. Conscious that in the ancient world it wasn't always. That wasn't always the end of the story, but in this ideal situation, the suffering will. The judgment will come to an end. God's judgment will cease. [00:05:13] Speaker A: Yeah. So this image of this woman in love is Israel. And I would suggest that preachers have a look at chapter four in Micah 4, the Real. There's quite an evocative section there at chapter 10 that talks again about the woman in labor. [00:05:32] Speaker B: Yeah, in verse 10. Yes. [00:05:33] Speaker A: In verse 10 and onwards, that you shall go to Babylon and there you shall be rescued, etc. Yes, it's a good echo, a parallel to that. [00:05:42] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:44] Speaker A: There's also the language here of shepherds and sheep, which we know a shepherd is of biblical imagery for a king. So we're in a time in history where the kings have been less than no good. [00:06:00] Speaker B: I think the echoes of David again, I think there. But I also think that it's. It's really. The whole passage is very countercultural. I mean, it's, it's. It's no Wearsville, you know, it's Bethlehem. Okay. It's where David comes from. But it's not the city of the elite, which is Jerusalem. It's not where the powerful are. It's a rural town and where the occupation is, shepherding is at least a major part of their lifestyle, of their farming lifestyle. And the image is of a shepherd who is concerned with peace. So it's not a warrior king, it's not an image of a warrior, but it's an obscure town where the ruler is actually concerned for peace. So it's quite. It's quite countercultural in his day and I think actually in ours, too. [00:06:52] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I was thinking a preaching focus could be, once you've done some theological work here with this. But where in our midst do we see glimmers of this godly peace? [00:07:07] Speaker B: Yes. [00:07:07] Speaker A: And life emerging, and usually in ordinary places we might normally overlook. [00:07:15] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. And also it's a challenge to. Where are we seeing that sort of godly government that is concerned not just for peace, but for peace with justice? [00:07:26] Speaker A: We're not seeing it anywhere much, Dorothy. [00:07:27] Speaker B: We're not seeing it anywhere much. [00:07:31] Speaker A: I mean, really, it's pretty woeful. [00:07:33] Speaker B: It is pretty woeful, actually. [00:07:35] Speaker A: I mean, if ever there was a time that we need to hear from Micah and Zephaniah and all of these prophets and this story of groundbreaking in breaking love. Yes, it's now. [00:07:50] Speaker B: It is now. Indeed it is. [00:07:54] Speaker A: Shall we move to the visitation, do you think? [00:07:58] Speaker B: Yes. [00:07:59] Speaker A: Which is Luke, chapter 1, verses 39, onwards to 55. Beautiful passage. [00:08:10] Speaker B: Yes, indeed. It's one of the nicest. [00:08:12] Speaker A: It's one of the nicest. Mary sets out, goes with haste, and visits Elizabeth. And question is, why? Why did she go? And some say, don't they, that she went to confirm, to believe what Gabriel said to her. Did she do it to go and be convinced? Or did she go to help Elizabeth to be convinced? Or both? [00:08:37] Speaker B: The text doesn't tell us, so there is in fact no real answer to that question. But at the Annunciation to Mary, the angel has said to her, now, your relative Elizabeth, in her old age, has also conceived a son. And so you get a sense, I think, with Mary, not that her faith is lacking or it needs confirmation, but she just wants to be with Elizabeth. Elizabeth also has received this miracle, miraculous pregnancy. And her instinct, she just rushes out the door, you know, she. She probably without a pocket handkerchief, like Bilbo in, you know, in. Is it in the Hobbit or. Yes, in the Hobbit, where he rushes out. She's so anxious to get there that she goes on foot this long journey. [00:09:22] Speaker A: And it's characteristic in Luke's Gospel, is it not, that two figures are put together to grapple with the revelation, for want of a better word, that they have encountered in their own lives or in a moment, to check it, to sort of share it and perhaps to. Well, yeah, to share it. Think on it, discern it together. Which is what we all do. [00:09:44] Speaker B: Which is what we all do. Yes, yes. It's really. It's lovely the way that she just rushes to Elizabeth's home. And Elizabeth actually response is quite extraordinary because here is Elizabeth, an older woman, she's the wife of a priest. So she's. She lives in Judea, she's not from the back blocks of Galilee like Mary. So she's got status over Mary in every sense. And yet she's the one who defers to Mary. She says to her, blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb. So Mary is blessed because of her faith and she's blessed because of the child in a womb. And that's an extraordinary. There are occasional paintings you can find where you see Elizabeth deferring, actually bending down lower than Mary, so deferring to this girl from the back blocks, even though her status is so much less than Elizabeth's. So it's an extraordinary sort of. Already there's a hint of the overturning that will be so characteristic of Luke's gospel. [00:10:59] Speaker A: I would certainly emphasise that in a sermon this week. I don't think it's an emphasis I've made before sufficiently strongly. [00:11:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:07] Speaker A: I was interested, reading Brendan Burns commentary, the reference to blessedness in women. And he takes you back to Baruch and Deborah. [00:11:16] Speaker B: Yes. [00:11:17] Speaker A: You know, and I just am struck, as I am repeatedly, that the thickness of description in these passages, that is lost on most of us, even those of us who give it some time. [00:11:26] Speaker B: Yes. [00:11:27] Speaker A: And read it, you know, and the sort of the violence actually, in the blessedness of those women in particular is pretty challenging. [00:11:35] Speaker B: Yes. [00:11:35] Speaker A: But just like the biblical narrative of miraculous births, which is this, you know, like you've got Hannah and Sarah in the background, but you have the blessedness of these other women. And because we don't know the Scriptures as readily, most of us, we don't hear it. So I just, you know. And the blessedness language is also obviously from the covenant and that Israel will be a blessing to all nations and. [00:12:01] Speaker B: Yes, that's right. [00:12:02] Speaker A: You know, this is. There is, as we know, in Luke, enormous focus on continuity, disruption and radical newness within continuity. [00:12:12] Speaker B: Yes, that's right. And I think the blessedness is also another feature of it, is that, I mean, Mary is declared to be blessed but here she is, you know, 13 or 14 year old, pregnant, for goodness sake, trying to explain that to the Rellies, you know, she. I mean, later Simeon says a sword will pierce your own heart also. So I mean, God's favour is. It's not the sort of thing necessarily to make you happy. [00:12:42] Speaker A: I was going to say it's not going along social norms. [00:12:46] Speaker B: It's certainly not. And it's involving Mary in struggle, in suffering and yet she is blessed by God, she's favored by God. [00:12:58] Speaker A: I'm thinking for focus on blessedness would be and what it isn't like. We have very trite. [00:13:06] Speaker B: I know sometimes we translate blessed are the poor in spirit. We say happy. Yes, they're not happy. Those who mourn are not happy, but they're blessed. [00:13:15] Speaker A: So how would you. Is that seen by. It's more than seen by God. How would. What's the definition of blessedness that you hold? Maybe I'm putting you on the spot. Just say so. If I am. [00:13:31] Speaker B: I think it's about having God's favor. And the fact is that, you know, it is the poor, it's God's poor who are receiving God's favor. So it's God's favor and God's promise. [00:13:43] Speaker A: Of future joy despite present apparent circumstances. Yeah, yeah, that's really. [00:13:52] Speaker B: And of course in all of this too, I think it's worth pointing out that there's, you know, Luke does a lot of pairing of male and female as well. And we've got this pairing of Mary and Zechariah. I mean, Zechariah at the Annunciation that comes to him is pretty hopeless. You know, he doesn't actually really believe and so he's punished with dumb. He's unable to speak. And so there's a contrast between Zechariah and Mary, indeed between Zechariah and Elizabeth. She's a woman of far greater faith and substance than her husband is, who's the priest, you know, so there's all that sort of going on as well. And also the other thing that I think is going on here is the ubiquitous presence of the Holy Spirit. [00:14:40] Speaker A: I was just going to bring us to that. And the leaping of the child in recognition. [00:14:45] Speaker B: Yes, already John the Baptist is prophesying. [00:14:47] Speaker A: Yeah, already. [00:14:48] Speaker B: Already at work. But I think the fact is that both women are under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They're both prophets and they act as prophets, they speak as prophets. In this scene, of course, Mary's prophetic words will be one of the great canticles of Luke's gospel. But Elizabeth herself is also under the inspiration. So we've got two women who are prophets who are speaking. Zechariah is dumb, but they are speaking. So the priest is the one who's not doing the speaking. It's women who are doing the speaking. And it's inspired by under the Holy Spirit. [00:15:27] Speaker A: I'm just reminded of Hannah in the temple, who whispers initially and then shouts her prayers or speaks out and just. [00:15:36] Speaker B: Well, the Song of Hannah very much lies at the basis of the Song of Mary, too, doesn't it? [00:15:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I certainly referred to it. I preached that week and certainly referred to this in that place. So shall we move to the Magnificat? [00:15:52] Speaker B: Yes. [00:15:52] Speaker A: Now, did I hear you, in conversation with Robyn, say that this passage forms part of your evening prayer? In Anglican tradition, yes. [00:15:59] Speaker B: In Anglican tradition, we use three canticles. It's not just Anglican tradition. It's a sort of more Catholic tradition in the west. And that is that in the morning you say, the better the song of Zechariah, Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel. And in the evening you say the Magnificat, and at night you say the Nunk, the Lord. Now you let your servant depart in peace. Now, Anglicans also have a thing called evensong, where they kind of squash evening prayer and compline in together, and they have both canticles. But the song of Mary is traditionally always said in the evening, which is nice. [00:16:38] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. [00:16:39] Speaker B: It's a nice discipline, actually, to follow. It's a monastic discipline, of course. [00:16:46] Speaker A: Okay. So her spirits rejoicing under the influence of the Holy Spirit, looking on her lowliness. There's reference to the blessedness again through all the generations. [00:17:01] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:04] Speaker A: What, is there a particular line that makes your heart sing, or is it all of it? [00:17:11] Speaker B: I think her sense of joy is the thing that struck me. My spirit rejoices in God, my Saviour. Incidentally, this is where I have problems with traditional Roman Catholic teaching on Mary as sinless, because she calls God her Saviour. [00:17:30] Speaker A: She wouldn't need one if she. [00:17:31] Speaker B: She wouldn't need one. Yes. So that's part of interesting ecumenical dialogue. [00:17:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:38] Speaker B: But I think her journey, joy is at the presence of God. It overrides even the pain and difficulties that she's going to have to face, that she's already facing, that all is swept away. She's overwhelmed by the joy of God's action, what God has done. And she sees in her own small experience, her own humble experience, she sees that as symbolic of God's whole activity in relation to the whole world. The great thing God has done is of course, bringing God's own son into the world. And Luke emphasizes. And here I might be a little bit unpopular in more liberal circles, but Luke emphasizes her virginity not because he thinks sex is bad or evil. Elizabeth and Zechariah, after all, have sex quite clearly, but to make the point that this birth is both human and yet somehow different. So it's fundamentally. It's an ordinary human birth. It's an ordinary human labor that she goes through. And yet it's also fundamentally different. There's something different that God has done here and there's an intervention of God. And so we end up with Mary as the one who is. Who gives birth without male aid. And I think this is great for feminism because. And parts. It explains why Jesus has such an extraordinary attitude towards women. He is born of, purely and solely of a woman. It's parthenogenesis, which I know is primarily theological and not primarily biological, but I think the biological should not be. We should not be too quick to dismiss it. [00:19:34] Speaker A: No, no. I'm just having all the artwork one could use in worship explode into my head with a focus on the labor and the women and the uniqueness of the coming in Luke of the Christ child. [00:19:50] Speaker B: Yes. And the whole thing about the Magnificat is that it takes the way society is, the way the world is, and turns it on its head. [00:20:00] Speaker A: Well, I was going to say this is reversals, the Luke and reversals. [00:20:03] Speaker B: It's the Luke and reversals. [00:20:04] Speaker A: It's also the apocalyptic sort of setting. Right. Of injustice. I mean, I'm curious that it seems to be in the past tense. I think because he's sent the ritual empty. Well, he hasn't yet. [00:20:19] Speaker B: Well, I think in the covenant that's what God has done. And God will continue to do. And God will finally do. [00:20:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:26] Speaker B: It is interesting that it's in the past tense. I mean, of course we're talking about what is at least in some sense a Lucan construction. You know, what Mary actually said. We don't know. We have this beautiful canticle which is based on the Song of Hannah, as we've already said. But Luke is looking back and saying, I mean, Luke's writing maybe in the 80s, you know, sort of at least a generation, if not two generations after Jesus. One generation. Not sure. I'm not. [00:21:01] Speaker A: Well, hence writing the birth in that way. I mean, you know, this was a groundbreaking, earth shattering event that must have occurred in a manner as Miraculous and unseen before manner as this. [00:21:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's saying that there's no. I mean, in the ancient world, the male was seen as the one who takes the initiative in sex in more ways than one, both biologically and, you know, in reality. But this is saying this has not come at human initiative. It's not. It's comet. Divine initiative. It's God's intrusion into the world to set things right and to set injustice, to set sin, to set suffering. And in all of this, for Luke, it's God's faithfulness to the covenant that Mary makes. Mary rejoice. This is how faithful God is to God's covenant. And that's what brings her joy, that that faithfulness will actually intervene or has already in the birth of Jesus. So in a way, she's speaking as if it's already. Already. [00:22:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I'm also struck by the absolutely communal, national, international and cosmic reality of that inbreaking, but also the sort of personal. Not ownership, but the personal embodiment of that in one person and the dynamic interplay between that. [00:22:34] Speaker B: Yes. [00:22:35] Speaker A: Which is the life of faith, in community. [00:22:38] Speaker B: Yes. [00:22:38] Speaker A: And in prayer and in life. [00:22:40] Speaker B: And one commentator has said, and I think has said rightly, that in Luke, Mary is the first Christian in the gospel. You know, that she is the first one. I mean, the second is Elizabeth. So the first Christians in the gospel are actually both women. It should have been Zechariah. He blew it. [00:23:00] Speaker A: He had his chance. [00:23:01] Speaker B: He had his chance. But in fact, at the end of the day, it's two women who, Mary and then Elizabeth, who were the first Christians and the first to show faith, the first to be utterly receptive to the Holy Spirit and the new thing that God is doing. [00:23:18] Speaker A: So preach it, sisters and brothers, preach it. [00:23:21] Speaker B: But can I just say one other thing about that? [00:23:23] Speaker A: Yeah, please do. [00:23:23] Speaker B: I love the way it ends. It's so beautiful. After all this inspired speech, you know, quite exhausting between these two women. They then have three months together. Mary stays with her for three months. I mean, how lovely that is, that. That there's a profound intimacy that these two women have in a shared, shared love of God, of what God has done in Jesus, a shared joy and. [00:23:53] Speaker A: The risk of psychologizing, a shared mutual support of one another. [00:23:56] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. [00:23:57] Speaker A: Absolutely in that. Now, we haven't made reference to the Hebrews reading this week. Dorothy, I know you have a special interest in Hebrews. It's a reading that takes us into sacrifice and other areas very apparent. Well, very different from these themes we've just been talking about. I guess I just wanted to ask whether there might be a couple of sentences you would offer as to why it's placed in the lectionary here this week. I've got my own suppositions, but what's going on here that helps us steer away from the sentimentality that can be at our heels in Advent? [00:24:50] Speaker B: I don't think it's a particularly easy passage, and a lot of Hebrews is not particularly easy, although it's an absolutely wonderful book. But it's also, incidentally, one of the books of the Bible that's seriously been suggested by scholars to have been written by a woman. [00:25:06] Speaker A: Really? [00:25:07] Speaker B: Yes. So there you go. There's another little sort of female touch. [00:25:10] Speaker A: Oh, goodness. [00:25:11] Speaker B: To our readings. I think what Hebrews is saying, what the author, she is saying, is that the whole notion of sacrifice, which, of course, I mean, that's the central imagery, metaphorical field of Hebrews is in fact about the sacrifice and the sacrifice of the high priest on the Day of Atonement. That is the whole setting of Hebrews and possibly written after it. It all stopped too, after the fall of the destruction of the temple. So what Hebrews, our author, is saying here is that it's not just about literal sacrifice, it's also a kind of taking away, understanding it metaphorically. Metaphoricized. Is there such a word? I don't think so. Right. [00:26:04] Speaker A: Made metaphorical. [00:26:06] Speaker B: Yeah, something like that. You feel as if there should be a verb there. But anyway, what it does is to say that the ultimate sacrifice that Jesus makes is, in fact, of his will. So. And yes, it is the sacrifice of his body, but it's not just the sacrifice of his body, it's the sacrifice of his will and the sacrifices of his will to the will of the Father as the Son and in his humanity. So it seems to me that you've got a link there with Mary and Elizabeth, who both are prepared to sacrifice their will and their bodies to the will of God for the salvation of the world. [00:26:48] Speaker A: Yep. And also, obviously, you're pointing towards the sacrifice that Christ will become, you know, on the cross. [00:26:57] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:26:58] Speaker A: And that's. That's the birth of this person that we. That we anticipate. [00:27:03] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:27:04] Speaker A: Absolutely. Which can be forgotten. What is it Luther who said that the crib and the cross are made of the same wood? [00:27:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Isn't that beautiful? [00:27:13] Speaker A: But, yeah, this. The voice from Hebrews is holding that for us. [00:27:20] Speaker B: Yes, yes, this week. But that. That gets rid of the sentimentality about Christmas, doesn't It absolutely does start to talk about. About a baby, about a lord who will be crucified. [00:27:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, it's also quite provocative and we've only got a few moments left, but it's quite provocative in our Western individualistic culture around choice and self authenticity and stuff. To give up your will. What is. [00:27:46] Speaker B: What does it mean to. What does that. [00:27:48] Speaker A: What does it mean? And it can mean terrible things, obviously. [00:27:51] Speaker B: It can mean terrible things. [00:27:52] Speaker A: Absolutely terrible. [00:27:53] Speaker B: Women. [00:27:53] Speaker A: Yeah, it can be absolutely terrible. [00:27:55] Speaker B: Yes. [00:27:56] Speaker A: But how can it be something else? What does it look like when it's life giving? [00:28:00] Speaker B: It's like the idea of obedience, I think John 15 puts it. Well, you know, you've got the notion of obedience is an adult obedience. It's not the obedience of a slave or a child. It's. Although I've never actually seen much obedience when it comes to children, can I say, as the mother and grandmother. But anyway, the theoretical obedience of children. This is the obedience of adults, know what they're doing, why they're doing it, and are given free choice, just like Mary is given free choice. To all intents and purposes, she's an adult. She's not in our terms. No, but she's an adult. And. And it's a yes. It's a very strong yes to God. The sacrifice of her will. She knows what she's doing. And there's always been a traditional, at least in parts of the church, that Mary could have said no and that there might have been a whole lot of other women who'd been asked. [00:28:49] Speaker A: Yeah, he said. [00:28:50] Speaker B: He said no. No way, Jose. You know, find someone else. But she actually says yes, knowingly, intelligently. [00:28:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for this conversation, Dorothy, and for your generous presence with us on by the well for this season of Advent. It's been. [00:29:07] Speaker B: I've enjoyed it. I love talking to you and Robyn. It's always stimulating. [00:29:11] Speaker A: It's been so rich and. Yeah. Episodes that people will listen to more than once, I suspect. [00:29:18] Speaker B: I hope so. [00:29:19] Speaker A: So we'll see you again, hopefully. But thank you very much. [00:29:22] Speaker B: Thank you, Fran. By the well is brought to you. [00:29:27] Speaker A: By Pilgrim Theological College and the Uniting Church in Australia. [00:29:31] Speaker B: It's produced by Adrian Jackson. Thanks for listening.