C 250 Reign of Christ

[00:00:05] Speaker A: You're listening to by the well, a lectionary based podcast, Preachers Recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri People. Hello everyone, I'm Fran Barber. [00:00:18] Speaker B: And I'm Robyn Whittaker. [00:00:20] Speaker A: And this week, Christ the King. We are focusing on Jeremiah 23:1 16, Colossians 1:11 20 and Luke 23:33 to 43. And it's the end of the liturgical. [00:00:41] Speaker B: Year and also the end of an era, Fran. [00:00:45] Speaker A: The end of an era. This will be our last episode of. [00:00:49] Speaker B: By the well for at least a while. We're having next year off. We're having a rethink and we've put this on our Facebook page. But if you don't follow us on Facebook, you might be hearing this for the first time. Fran and I wanted to do the last episode because we started this six years ago. [00:01:08] Speaker A: Six years ago. I remember on the floor of your office with our makeshift recording equipment compared to the flashy stuff we have right here, folks that you can't see. But yeah, I remember recording that first episode. Actually we recorded it twice. [00:01:25] Speaker B: I think we did because we made so many mistakes and had no idea. [00:01:28] Speaker A: What we were doing. [00:01:30] Speaker B: And you might wonder if that's still the case. [00:01:32] Speaker A: Like to think we've improved, but we have enjoyed. I will want to say I've really enjoyed bumping into people around the life of the church. You know, sometimes I forget we've done this or we're doing it and people find people know my voice or something. [00:01:47] Speaker B: But. [00:01:47] Speaker A: And yeah, say oh, you're friend. You're the voice. You're the face to the voice. And it's very. Not been very nice connection point to have with people. So I've really appreciated those little meetups and exchanges I've had. [00:02:00] Speaker B: Yeah, same. And we are going to put on our Facebook page a link to. We've created a resource, a webpage where you'll be able to search for back episodes and search by reading so that the two cycles of lectionary episodes will be there as an ongoing resource even while we take a break and think about what's next. So we hope people will keep using them in this. Some good content there that I think will remain relevant for at least a little bit longer. [00:02:29] Speaker A: We've had some very interesting, learned and lively guests over the time. It's one of my fonder memories of, you know, of being part of this. [00:02:38] Speaker B: Yeah. So yeah, yeah, it's been a great, a great discipline, but a little bit too much right now. [00:02:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So it's Christ the King, which is a peculiar, relatively recent phenomenon in the history of 2000 year history of the church. So I think it was 1925 when the Catholic Church set aside today as Christ the King in a sort of a statement against the posturing kingship of Mussolini and Hitler. [00:03:10] Speaker B: Or in that context. [00:03:11] Speaker A: Yeah, in that context, which actually is. [00:03:15] Speaker B: Worryingly still pertinent, worryingly still relevant. It's sometimes referred to as the reign of Christ because some people find that the gendered nature of kingship language problematic. But I think what it's inviting us to do, and we'll see this in the readings, is to reflect on the nature of leadership and power, you know, typically located in things like monarchs. And there's plenty to think about still. [00:03:41] Speaker A: When it comes to that. Well, considering a certain president of a certain large country is talking about being the king there. [00:03:48] Speaker B: That's right. Bring back monarchy. That was said with sarcasm, folks. All right, Jeremiah 23:1 to 6. [00:03:57] Speaker A: Restoration after exile. [00:03:59] Speaker B: Yes. So it's worth saying just for a little bit of context, you know, the land of, of Israel and Judah has been decimated by the Babylonians. People have been in exile. They. This is part of a set of texts reflecting on, you know, kind of what's happened, trying to make sense of it all. Some scholars who work on trauma in the Bible will say that these are, these are trauma texts. You can see people retelling the story as a way of trying to make sense of it. And I think what we have in this passage is really two types of kingship or two types of leadership being juxtaposed. So we start with the shepherds, which is an image. These aren't actual shepherds because actual shepherds were taken from lower classes. This is a metaphor for leadership. Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture. [00:04:52] Speaker A: Which I thought referred to different types of leaders from kings and prophets. Like not. [00:04:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yes, yeah, any kind of leader. [00:05:01] Speaker A: Kind of. Yeah, yeah. [00:05:03] Speaker B: And I think the thing to note is what, what these sort of bad shepherds do, so to speak, which is they scatter people, they divide. Right. They're in some cases driven away. There's this really strong language. Their doings are called evil in verse two and in verse four, as a kind of comparison, God is saying, I'll raise up shepherds who'll shepherd them and not with fear. So these are leaders who've led with fear as opposed to led with love and service and. Or any of the other positive, nurturing, nurturing kind of leadership. [00:05:43] Speaker A: Leadership which Again, I mean, you know, the popular politics emerging, emerging everywhere, it seems all across the globe is all about dividing and scattering and identifying minorities as the problem and the fault of all these, you know, essentially profound economic equal inequality between people that is getting worse and worse. And rather than sheeting the blame home at the exceedingly rich and powerful, it's oh, well, it's those people placing fear in everyone else of migrants and, you know, whoever the scapegoat is, the other who. And so therefore we are not united against this evil force that is this particular form of leadership, but we are actually divided amongst ourself, which. [00:06:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think you can track that kind of leadership at a global level, at a national level, and even within churches. I mean, if your church leadership is dividing people, is causing people to fear that they can't speak out or they can't name things, I mean, at every level of leadership or your organization or wherever you work, this is, you know, according to this prophet, not the kind of leadership God requires. [00:07:06] Speaker A: And Jeremiah has been obviously talking about this through. We're on chapter 23. [00:07:11] Speaker B: Yeah. For a while. [00:07:12] Speaker A: For a while. I mean, you know, and for him, he talks about idolatry all the time and as a sort of an adultery that's gone on. But it's really the Israelites failing to hold, to keep to the covenant with God. Yep. And that has led to social inequality. [00:07:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, for me, the. The sort of comforting part of this reading is, is the verses five and six where we get this promise of the days coming when. And notice God here is the agent. God will raise up for David a righteous branch. So we get this language of a righteous. This is in other parts of the Bible. It's the shoot of Jesse, you know, these sorts of language. And we get this kingship language. He will reign as king, but this king is wise. He is just, he is righteous. And in verse 6, he will be known because he saves the people and Israel will live in safety. And I was really struck by that, particularly again, looking at what's going on in Israel and Gaza where there is. Well, there's more safety for one side because they have better weapons. There's very little safety for the people in Gaza. But when your safety has to be based in military power, it's not, it's not this kind of safety. So this is a Hebrew word like Batakh, which means trusting or secure, like confident in the security. So it goes to. It's more than just physical safety. It's a deep, abiding security. That you're in God's hands or you're in the safe hands of a leader. So it's a very stark contrast here. [00:08:52] Speaker A: And I think it's worth emphasizing in Christian to Christian ears and in the Christian context that this salvation that's being spoken of here really is not the individualistic form that, you know, some Christians love, but a collective piece of God. [00:09:09] Speaker B: It's the nation in general. [00:09:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Which, along with the passion reading in the gospel we'll talk about shortly, is then universal peace on earth. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. Well, shall we turn to the New Testament? [00:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:26] Speaker B: Was there anything. Yep. So Colossians chapter one, verses 11 to 20. [00:09:32] Speaker A: Oh, this. Sorry, I spoke over our music. Not something I've done often, but in my last episode I've. [00:09:41] Speaker B: We've forgotten how to. [00:09:42] Speaker A: Forgotten the rules. I mean, this is such a cosmic scope. This is the gospel in summary. Really. [00:09:53] Speaker B: Yeah. It's quite cradle feeling, very cradle. [00:09:56] Speaker A: And I feel for that reason, like it could almost be a commentary on almost any gospel reading you could put beside it. Again, it's the talk of power and glorious power. And so it's an invitation to pars. The peculiar, contrary sort of power that God has in Christ. Contrary to worldly power. [00:10:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:27] Speaker A: And I'm interested in sort of the prayer that we Christians have all endurance and patience. [00:10:37] Speaker B: I know, yeah. [00:10:40] Speaker A: That's a funny little fragment of this grand reading to, you know, to. To focus on. But I do think that's quite a rich idea of what it means to be both living in this patience between the gap between what God wills and hopes for the world and what is actually what. How do we embody this vulnerable power in a world that is fractious and chaotic and. And what does living with patients look like? But essentially it means living in God's time and not our own. [00:11:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:18] Speaker A: I don't know. There's a lot you could. [00:11:20] Speaker B: You could talk about and recognizing again, a bit like in Jeremiah. Jeremiah, God is the actor here. So it's God who's rescued us. God. Who's God in whom redemption lies. You know, this is not something we've done, but the call to humans in this is. Is to pray for endurance. But I was struck by the word joyfully. [00:11:43] Speaker A: Yes. [00:11:44] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:45] Speaker A: Well, enjoyful in patience don't go together because normally, like, you're being patient under sufferance by definition. Really. Usually. [00:11:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes, exactly. And it's not my best trait. [00:11:57] Speaker A: No. [00:11:58] Speaker B: Enduring with patience. [00:12:00] Speaker A: But I'm joyfully. [00:12:01] Speaker B: Yeah. But this sense of. There's still gratitude there's still joy and, you know, and I think this is part of the darkness, not overwhelming. Right. It's part of the. We can find these moments of joy and light and, you know, communion with God that take us actually out of being overwhelmed. [00:12:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:24] Speaker B: By what might be going on in the world and. [00:12:27] Speaker A: And just sort of in a confidence that what we see around us isn't the final thing. [00:12:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the Christian hope. Right. And I think for preachers, it's always hard to get this balance between. We want to acknowledge what's going on in the world. There's so much suffering we could point to. We want to be serious and take that seriously. But it is also our job to point to the hope, to point to the joy, to point to what God has promised to do and what God is doing in our midst. [00:12:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:59] Speaker B: And. And at times to be the bearers of hope for people who might not feel it, I think. So it is that balancing act of not leaving people in despair. [00:13:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's also that the people in front of us as preachers might not be. I mean, we don't want them to fall under the laborious feeling of got to be hopeful. Even though it's speaking to them about, I don't know, where the location of hope is. That's not about their own achievement or something, or their own effort. [00:13:28] Speaker B: No. And it's not even optimism. It is this trust in something greater than ourselves. [00:13:34] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:34] Speaker B: Trust in. Yeah. Now we should talk about this. What's often called a creed by scholars. So verses 15 to 20 may well be. Because the sort of. The prose changes a little bit here. And I, you know, that a lot of scholars do think this is a kind of an existing creed or something that might have been familiar in the church. So we could be reading one of the oldest forms of a kind of hymn or creed that points to who Jesus was. And it has a lot of the attributes that we find in later creeds, like affirming Jesus as the icon or image of God. So reflecting God, part of creation, pre existent. [00:14:18] Speaker A: Thinking of John's Gospel. [00:14:19] Speaker B: Yeah, it's very. You know, and then obviously the. The firstborn of the dead. So that's. That's a way of talking about his resurrection and making peace. As you mentioned before, this. This language of reconciling all things. So again, this is not individual human salvation. This is nothing less than the reconciliation of all creation, really, on heaven or in earth. And I looked up this little word that it's a very unusual Word here, catalasso or apocalasso in the Greek. And it. It's mostly used in Christian writings because there are other words in. In Greek for reconciling, but it literally does mean exchanging hostility for friendship. And I thought that's a lovely image, again, to think about in this world and to think about when we think about power and leadership. What does it mean to be people and communities who exchange hostility for friendship? That could be a whole. [00:15:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I was just provoked. A memory of mine from. We had our synod meeting a couple of months ago and our colleague John Flitt did the Bible study. Bible studies. And he referred to. And I'm gonna only be able to remember this. Generally, folks, those of you out there will remember it better. But in the ecumenical movement in the early 1920s, some feedback it got from a particular Indian theologian who said that, you know, the missionaries there sacrificed enormous amounts in their lives to come and bring the gospel, you know, down to their actual life for some of them. But the one thing that they didn't bring was friendship. [00:16:02] Speaker B: Oh. [00:16:02] Speaker A: And that this is the core to Christian community and to perhaps, in the words of Sam Wells, us being with another, like, not over and. But being with. So, I mean, the category of friendship's been used by a number of scholars over centuries. Of course, it does get lost, though. [00:16:25] Speaker B: I think it does. [00:16:26] Speaker A: Sometimes we don't. We maybe think it's a trivial sort of, you know, something that's not quite embedded in the gospel. But anyway, that really stuck with me. [00:16:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:39] Speaker A: That definition you've got there from the Greek is really powerful. And actually, if I was preaching on this week, I would perhaps. Yeah, focus on that. [00:16:50] Speaker B: And if. And if we want to put it in the wider theme of the reign of Christ, it would be, again, who are the. Who are the leaders? And how can we be the kind of leaders in whatever communities we're in, whether it's our family or our workplace who do this record, who participate in this reconciling work of Christ. So how can we be leaders who are, you know, minimizing hostility and building friendship and in some ways, friendship. I agree with you. I think we can be flippant about that word. Yeah. I think because we live in a culture that so elevates romantic love, we've forgotten that friendship is a deeply important kind of love. [00:17:27] Speaker A: And obviously we have more of. Well, more friendship. We have more friends than. [00:17:33] Speaker B: I don't know about you. I have a lot of romantic love. [00:17:37] Speaker A: But. But, yeah, but it is a form of love. Right. [00:17:41] Speaker B: When you Have a friend that you'd go out of your way and bend over backwards for to make their life better or when you see them struggling. That is love. And how we extend that to people we find harder to love or harder to like or who are the world tells us are our enemies is an ongoing challenge for people of faith. [00:18:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And I also think it's a way in which you can really encourage people to not feel disempowered by the chaos we've been talking about that exists out there. Like, what. It is overwhelming what we get exposed to now. News of all sorts of bad kinds. But how can we offer people a way of inhabiting the world in their corner of the world that is doable. Yep. Even if challenging at times. But doable. [00:18:30] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. And. And can start with small acts of friendship. [00:18:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:35] Speaker B: So anything else we want to say about this before? [00:18:39] Speaker A: No, I don't think. [00:18:40] Speaker B: I mean, so again, the head of. [00:18:42] Speaker A: The body, the church. There's something about the sort of kingship that. I know we're using the gender term, but. [00:18:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I mean, here the language is head. Right. Head of body, as opposed to king. But that is, you know. [00:18:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:55] Speaker B: If Christ is the head of the church, that's. [00:18:58] Speaker A: Well, that's what I'm getting at. [00:18:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:59] Speaker A: It is a form of shepherding, and we know that Jesus is called the good shepherd. Yeah. In other scriptures. So actually, I think I'm saying. Yes, the echoes of that shepherding rule comes through this passage as well. [00:19:13] Speaker B: I agree. And even that image. I mean, it's another way to talk about leadership. But. And, you know, be careful with your language, because headship has a whole lot of other connotations in terms of. Yeah. Male headship. It's usually used with. But here we have an image of the. That the head of the body is literally the thing that drives and turns and controls the body, but embodied in Christ, who does that in a way that is about reconciliation and peace. So always the caveat. And if we go over to Luke's gospel now, we're gonna see that the lectionary have put. You know, they're just giving us these big juxtapositions of what leadership can look like. If we think back to where we started with woe to you, shepherds in Jeremiah. [00:19:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And I was just thinking before we go there, sort of verse 14 here, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. And it's Luke, that the forgiveness on Jesus lips is often. And actually it is in the Passion story, as we Will see. Might seem quite odd to some people to have this passion story again at the end of the year, but then, you know, what a way to proceed. Advent. [00:20:28] Speaker B: Yes. So it's Luke 23:33 to 43. The other option this week, which we're kind of skipping over, but is instead of the Psalm, it gives you Luke chapter one, which is Zechariah's song from chapter one, verse 68, which does pair beautifully with Jeremiah and picks up a lot of that language of a savior in the Davidic line. It picks up the light, darkness language from Colossians. So that would be worth singing or saying or reading, depending on the theme you're going with. But we're going to focus on Luke 23 here. And it's the crucifixion, which I must say, when I looked up the readings in preparation, I did think, oh, not what I was expecting this week. So what strikes you, given the theme and where we are in the lectionary year, friend? [00:21:15] Speaker A: Oh, well, I don't know about what struck me, and I've put them in bold in my copy here, just what the people. The verbs attributed to the people. [00:21:24] Speaker B: Yes. [00:21:24] Speaker A: Watching and scoffing and mocking of the soldiers are mocking, they're deriding, they're rebuking. I, I just, yeah, it's just a scene of such. I mean, the word bullying, perhaps trivialize. Trivializes this, but it's just humanity at its worst ganging up here. [00:21:47] Speaker B: And it's. And it's whole cohorts of people. I think. [00:21:50] Speaker A: Luke. [00:21:50] Speaker B: Yes, Luke is a beautiful storyteller and we can skip over those details. And it, you know, it starts with the people and the leaders and the soldiers and then his fellow criminals. I mean, he's basically naming different parts of the crowd who are all here in this scene, and every single one of them, except maybe the one criminal who actually asks him a question about. Are all basically jeering and scoffing and mocking him and telling him to go save himself or save them or whatever. [00:22:21] Speaker A: So, I mean, it is a scene of, of the, of irony in terms of power. So all these parties, the leaders, the soldiers and even the first thief, they're addressing Jesus as anointed of God and mocking him, because supposedly he's got the power to save himself, according to them. [00:22:41] Speaker B: Yes. [00:22:42] Speaker A: And that their assumption is he should do that for himself, because that's what anyone smart would do. [00:22:48] Speaker B: Well, yeah, that's fascinating, isn't it? [00:22:50] Speaker A: Kind of a worldly sort of. Well, it's pretty obvious if this is what you can do. Go ahead and do it. [00:22:55] Speaker B: Yeah, right, that's. That's such a good point, Fran, because that's such a worldly view of leadership. Well, if you could save yourself or you could further yourself in some ways, you of course would do that which. [00:23:07] Speaker A: 99% of the time people not perhaps that's a bit pessimistic, but they do and he does. And the irony of course is he does act to save and that is all that's happening here, but not in the way they expect and certainly not of himself. His real power is being able to refuse, as he did in the temptations and desert. Yeah, refuse Using that power for his own. For his own sake. [00:23:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:39] Speaker A: And power instead in being able to endure this cataclysmic rejection and agony. And then you've got the second thief. Oh, incidentally too, just as not just interested that the bracket sort of. He was between two criminals. And we know that. And we know the crucifixion was a Roman form of torture and death used ubiquitously. But also textually speaking, that in Psalm 22 and elsewhere in Isaiah, the fact that this suffering servant would be among the lawless talked about in the Hebrew scriptures. And so, you know, we have to have it underlined here. [00:24:25] Speaker B: And Luke does use the word in the translation in the NRSV as criminals. Luke does use the word that. The Kakugos word, which is basically evildoers. It's how you do talk about criminals. So there's no, it's not bandits. It's not a political thing. I mean these are evildoers. He's. He's. Yeah, so it fits very well with that. [00:24:44] Speaker A: And I love the stark contrast that verse 34 is. And interestingly in parentheses. But it's Jesus at prayer, which is. Happens in Luke a lot. [00:24:54] Speaker B: Yes, all the time. [00:24:56] Speaker A: And it's sort of a crescendo of Jesus message of forgiveness happening here. [00:25:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:02] Speaker A: Like the message of forgiveness has been from the get go in Mary's song. [00:25:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:08] Speaker A: And all the way through and reiterated. He does, you know, forgive them for they know not what they're doing. [00:25:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it's in. And the brackets, folks, if you don't know this, the brackets indicate that some of our oldest texts miss that part of the verse. So it's. It's a way of saying we're not sure if this is original to Luke or got added at a later. So it's, it's a dubious. Historically. I mean when I say added at a later stage. Not yesterday, not yesterday. I mean it could have been like a decade later or when someone copied it out. But at some point, it's likely. I think someone inserted that line. But to do so, picking up on how much of a focus forgiveness is in Luke's gospel and that even here Jesus is forgiving people. So, I mean, it's kind of consistent theologically. [00:26:00] Speaker A: But, yeah, if I may be so bold, I found that their insertion is very astute. [00:26:04] Speaker B: There you go. [00:26:05] Speaker A: But. So we've got. Also something to highlight is the irony in. This is the King of the Jews in verse 38. [00:26:13] Speaker B: I was gonna say. That really struck me this time, reading it on Christ the King Sunday. And with everything, you know, we've just talked about that we've got this bleak picture of hanging with criminals, scoffed, mocked, et cetera, et cetera. And then we just get this again, Lucas Storyteller. This line that takes our eyes to the plaque. There was also an inscription over him. This is the king of the Jews. So if we put that alongside Jeremiah and the promised king and the bad shepherds, this is what kingship looks like. And it could not be more different to the kingship of the world. [00:26:51] Speaker A: For scandalous, because I use it a lot, but I don't know what else that is outrageous. [00:26:55] Speaker B: I don't know. Well, Paul talks about. Well, scandal or offense. This is an offense, right? Because it is so absolutely shocking that, you know, God's way of modeling. And I'm using the word leadership a lot, and that. That's a modern and contemporary term, and people might not like that. But I think to help us make sense of what it looks like in the contemporary world, where not every culture has a king, it's a very different version of. And in fact, I was doing some leadership training recently. I did the kingship training. It wasn't kingship training, unfortunately. I would have quite liked to do some kingship training. It was the Brene Brown one. And they. It's not heavy in her work, but they were pointing to some other resources. And I was fascinated to hear that in these thoroughly secular, for want of a better word, leadership books, people are talking about servant leaders, leadership, which of course, we've talked about in the church for a very, very long time. And I will go away and do some more reading because I'm interested how it might have Christian roots, but I'm interested that there's a whole cohort of leadership studies now talking about servant leadership in a way that the church has. And I think the church has sometimes done it in a. I was just. [00:28:13] Speaker A: Gonna say I was reading something which, again, this is a podcast vote, so I haven't prepared, but I was reading a Christian scholar can't remember their name, really. Critiquing the servant leadership model and actually using friendship. [00:28:27] Speaker B: Oh, that's nice. Let's go with that. [00:28:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And it was a podcast, I think, perhaps. Anyway, sorry, I digress. But it was interesting just how it was critiquing some of the shortcomings of the servant model in certain contexts. [00:28:43] Speaker B: Yes. And I have my critiques of it because I think it can. It has been taken on board by some clergy to say, you let people walk all over you and you never stand up for anything or anyone, including yourself. And I don't think that's what that means at all. No, no. Um, but it can. Yeah, yeah, but if Fran can find that reference, folks, we'll pop it on the Facebook page. [00:29:03] Speaker A: But so, just moving back, I was talking about the irony in here and the power and so on. And then you've. So you've got this. The first thief going, just save yourself if you can, because you've got the power. And then this conversion experience, really, from the second thief in verse 41, admitting, look, we're getting what we deserve. I'm not sure. Getting crucified. [00:29:31] Speaker B: No. But anyway, in that system. [00:29:33] Speaker A: In that system, we're getting what we deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong. So this sort of. [00:29:39] Speaker B: Yep. [00:29:40] Speaker A: Realization, recognizing that Jesus is the. Is the king and remember me when you come into your kingdom. So first of all, not asking for any particular place in it, like, can I be first? [00:29:51] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. But just can you remember me? [00:29:54] Speaker A: Can you? [00:29:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:55] Speaker A: And today is a really. Yes, that's a very Lucan word, immediate. This is not a remote thing. Jesus is saying, well, he said, today, salvation has come to your house in Zacchaeus. There's something really sort of present and something about Jesus recognizing people's. Well, responding to their. Aha. Conversion in this sort of incredibly present, immediate way. [00:30:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:26] Speaker A: That the word today conveys. [00:30:29] Speaker B: I think that's right. And. And of course, in Luke, again, if we were to keep reading, we would see that this is the gospel where the centurion says, when Jesus dies, surely this man was innocent. [00:30:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:40] Speaker B: So that criminal is also doing the work of reminding us that Jesus has done nothing wrong. He is the innocent sufferer. And yet even in that state, he is really reconciling people, making peace. [00:30:56] Speaker A: He's. [00:30:57] Speaker B: You know, if we take the bracketed verse seriously, he's. He's forgiving people and modeling right up until his moment of death, that which he lived. Yeah. So that might be enough for the reign of Christ. [00:31:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think just to finish be good to reflect on the sort of power the church wields and how it does it. And. [00:31:24] Speaker B: Well, that's. [00:31:25] Speaker A: I'm just gonna leave it there, really. But that would be a good place to take it, I think. [00:31:29] Speaker B: Yeah. I think, as we were saying before, you could take this off as rich reflections for, you know, individual lives, community lives, leadership in the church, the church itself as an institution, how it wields its power or doesn't. And, of course, what's going on globally. Yeah. [00:31:46] Speaker A: That. That real power is bringing forth life and nurturing. Not. And reconciling and not scattering and destroying and setting oneself up as fabulously rich and important. [00:32:01] Speaker B: Well, thank you, Fran, for six years of doing a podcast. [00:32:04] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:32:05] Speaker B: With some other amazing help. [00:32:07] Speaker A: Was just you and me for a while. For a while. Thank you, too. I hope we do talk in real life more often, too. [00:32:13] Speaker B: We will now talk without microphones. And thank all of you for listening and for your preaching of the Word by the well is brought to you by Pilgrim Theological College and the Uniting Church in Australia. It's produced by Adrian Jackson. Thanks for listening.