C231 Pentecost 5

[00:00:05] Speaker A: You're listening to by the well, a lectionary based podcast for preachers recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri people. Hello, everyone, I'm Fran Barber. [00:00:18] Speaker B: And I'm Harold Wallace. [00:00:20] Speaker A: Welcome to our conversation. Today, Harold and I will be focusing on three readings from the tenth week after Pentecost. In particular, Amos 7, 7, 17, Psalm 82 and Luke chapter 10, verses 25 to 37. So we're going to begin with the book of Amos. A minor prophet. [00:00:43] Speaker B: A minor prophet, which is. [00:00:44] Speaker A: Yep, minor prophet doesn't mean he's. I'm glad he's not here. That we're calling him a minor prophet. And also a book, I think that does enormous amount for our imagination. There's a lot strange imagery and poetics in it. So can you tell us a bit about Amos? [00:01:06] Speaker B: A bit about Amos? [00:01:08] Speaker A: We don't know much. We get a few details in the text. [00:01:10] Speaker B: Like most prophets, we don't know a lot about them. He lived roughly about the middle of the 8th century, at least that's when we think we can date him. He came from the southern kingdom of Judah and he tells us in today's passage too that he was a shepherd. It's usually translated as. Which we often sort of imagine then as being someone who sort of moves with sheep around the hills and looks after them. But the word that's used for shepherd is an unusual word in that context, and it implies more a person who runs a business that has to do with agricultural matters, sheep. And obviously see clearly from the text probably also some other agricultural work to trees. [00:02:03] Speaker A: Yeah, that's an important detail, I think, to help those of us, particularly who live in cities in the Western world might have sort of slightly sentimental or beatific ideas of shepherds. Or else we might get a reading from this that romanticises Amos, marginalization from power or something, which not always the case. [00:02:28] Speaker B: Clearly somebody who knows what's going on in the country. Well, he goes to the north, to what we call Israel, the Northern kingdom. So he's moving out of his home context to some extent, although presumably his trade may have taken him there. He's also addressed by Amaziah during our reading today, who is a priest at Bethel, one of the major sanctuaries in the north. And he's accused of being a prophet on the take in a way. I mean, what is. What Amaziah is referring to are the professional prophets, we might call them fortune tellers, although it's probably a bit too simplistic. People who received income from their prophetic or fortune telling work. And Amos vehemently denies this. He stresses that he was this shepherd figure and he's been called by God to say whatever he has to say in the Northern kingdom. [00:03:25] Speaker A: And I think that's important to point out here, therefore, the prophecy is not fortune telling biblically at all. At all. At all. And I was reading a couple of things before this conversation just about how, you know, if you like Amos, you don't really understand the sort of bristly, confronting character he is and would have been. Yeah, that. And also Brueggemann writing about the confronting imagination that prophets need to have and the way in which they speak to people that it is. We can again, perhaps romanticise it as a sort of social activism. And you know, you could read, you could flatten Amos out here and say, well, it's like the social activism of us going on a rally or whatever. But this is a lot less comfortable almost than that. And rough edged, disturbing rough edged, which. [00:04:22] Speaker B: Is why he's getting the opposition from or from Amaziah. But it's coming from the palace in the north, from Jeroboam, who was the. Jeroboam II was the king there. Clearly corrupt according to what Amos has to say. And that's what he's addressing, the corruption of both worship, although worship is not the center of his message in these nine chapters, but that's clearly corrupt according to him. And also the social activity that's going on under the government in the north. [00:04:56] Speaker A: And I guess his, his, his economic activity in his profession would have meant he was seeing. Seeing it all the time and sort of almost participating in it as well. [00:05:06] Speaker B: Could have been. [00:05:06] Speaker A: Could have been. So Amos, this, this what we have today, the vision with the plumb line is one of four visions. Five visions. Five visions. [00:05:16] Speaker B: Amos, the book of Amos. We'll just step back a little bit. I mean, these books are collections of oracles and incidents and events that are associated with the prophets. They're not always sort of. Well, they're certainly not written in the time of the prophet, probably after the prophet's words have been seen to have some veracity to them and they don't always occur in a nice logical order. You might expect his call, if you like to be a prophet to come right at the beginning, as it does with some of the other prophets. But here it seems to be. That's what we're dealing with in chapter seven. These visions are the things that stir him on and they're. Well, of course, almost towards the end. [00:06:02] Speaker A: Of the book that's interesting, isn't it? So we've got the vision of the locusts in chapter seven. Very brief, very brief one. Then the vision of fire, the pattern. [00:06:11] Speaker B: Is set up, you notice the text is repeated almost, except with a change of subject matter. And in both cases Amos protests to God that this is just too much and God relents in those contexts. But then we've got our third vision, which is the one that starts our, our passage for today from verse 7 on this vision of the so called plumb line. Then the fourth vision comes later in chapter eight, which is a basket of fruit. And these are all little plays on word. Well, the basket of fruit especially is a little play on words. [00:06:49] Speaker A: Yes, it is. I remember reading that. [00:06:51] Speaker B: And then in the beginning of nine we've got yet another vision where he sees the Lord standing beside the altar and in judgment. And that leads into the concluding section of his judgmental words in chapter nine. But then added to that the section about hope at the very end. [00:07:11] Speaker A: Yeah, well obviously those last verses of Amos need to be remembered and held while we read some of these judgments. You know, I don't know if it's dialectic's the right word, or paradox or tension, but that clearly God's judgment comes, but that mercy is what prevails ultimately. And so it's this sort of dance. [00:07:34] Speaker B: It'S the play on between those two. [00:07:36] Speaker A: So just skipping back to the wordplay. One of the word plays, so we're not in chapter eight at the moment, but the word play there around the summer fruit, where the Hebrew word for that sounds like the word for the end. [00:07:50] Speaker B: Yeah, well Chayetz is the word for summer fruit and Chaytz is the word for end and a destructive sort of end. So he's playing on that. So that vision involves simple word play which we can get by hearing the words. [00:08:10] Speaker A: I'm struck before you go on, but. So when I think summer fruit, I think, well, I think of a bowl of fruit and I also think of Caravaggio, still life or something. There's something beautiful, potentially beautiful again about that image. [00:08:24] Speaker B: But then there's hope of. Yeah, yeah, food for the, for the year. [00:08:30] Speaker A: Exactly. But then that's, it's not that here it's actually a symbol of Israel reaching the end. [00:08:35] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:36] Speaker A: And judgment. So again another confronting. You know, we go, oh, basket of summer fruit. [00:08:41] Speaker B: Oh, nice. [00:08:42] Speaker A: You know, it's not what you thought. [00:08:44] Speaker B: And the image, although it's quite a different image than the one in our passage today, which is a so called Plumb. [00:08:51] Speaker A: Plumb line. [00:08:51] Speaker B: Yeah, plumb line. I mean, that translation has got to be taken a little bit sort of. Well, with a little question mark after it. Because that's the only time the word that's translated, plumb line is. Occurs in the Old Testament, Hebrew Bible. So we really don't quite know what it means or we know what a plumb line is. It's something that tests the straightness of a wall, which seems to make a bit of sense here, or a building. [00:09:17] Speaker A: A spirit level. [00:09:19] Speaker B: It's not quite a spirit, it's a vertical one. [00:09:21] Speaker A: You can put spirit levels vertically. My husband's trading. Yeah, ye. [00:09:27] Speaker B: But in those days, I mean, you hold your plumb line up, but it's sort of also closely related. Some would argue the word for tin, but that's too light for a plumb line. You need something heavy like lead or something. [00:09:41] Speaker A: So there's not. And obviously not to. [00:09:42] Speaker B: We're not quite sure. [00:09:43] Speaker A: No. And obviously they haven't seen the word, have they used in other documents to then verify. So. Interesting. Okay, well, we'll take it as plumb. [00:09:52] Speaker B: Line, which we fits the image very nicely about again about the judgment, but this time there's no request for relenting and no relenting on God's part. And we're going to move right into. Well, after the little interplay between Amaziah and Amos, we then move into more judgment. [00:10:16] Speaker A: It's a very stark and portentful. A few verses, 8 and 9 there. Yes, the desolate. The words desolate and laid waste. Yeah. And so Amazon high places, you know. [00:10:33] Speaker B: The sanctuaries, Israel and then finally the house of Jeroboam. So it's both worship, although these are probably the only references to worship that Amos has got. Hosea, who we look at in a few weeks time, is much more concerned about issues of worship than what we call social justice. But it's the other way around. [00:10:56] Speaker A: Interesting. Okay, and so Amaziah, we've said, is the priest to the king who. Who seems to want to retain the status quo and as you say, finds Amos. Amos's message too challenging to really uphold and wants to send him on his way. I mean, it's the opposite of a prophet's not welcome in his own country. Well, a prophet's not welcome from another country here either. Prophets are not welcome generally. And Amos has said, Jeroboam shall die by the sword and Israel must go into exile away from his land. So, yes, it's pretty disturbing portent. [00:11:42] Speaker B: It is. [00:11:45] Speaker A: I'm struck Here, I mean, just to step away from the text briefly, how this interaction and this dynamic between power and injustice and justice is ever true in human communities and that in any time in human history we could substitute Amaziah and Jeroboam for. [00:12:07] Speaker B: Well, we see it going on. [00:12:09] Speaker A: Well, it's just, I mean, I know this, you know, at the moment, the big beautiful bill in the US that's been passed that is just catastrophic for those with less will get, you know, even less and the dynamic of power that goes on to maintain that something like that can pass and become law. And who's, I mean, you know, the wider question then is who is, who's the. Who's Amos in the various gods? [00:12:43] Speaker B: Yes. I mean, big problem just at the moment. Yeah, well, for the US anyway, I think. [00:12:47] Speaker A: Well. And anyway, I suppose it's a wider question. Is that a call to the church in this instance for our communities? [00:12:53] Speaker B: Well, yes, yes. [00:12:57] Speaker A: And so we have. After he's had this exchange with Amaziah. This is where Amos does what all the prophets do in the Bible pretty much, don't they? They say, oh no, I'm not, I'm not that important. You know, I'm not, not no prophet, nor a prophet's son. [00:13:15] Speaker B: Yes, well here he's. [00:13:16] Speaker A: But I am a herdsman. Etc. [00:13:18] Speaker B: He's declaring he's not a professional prophet. [00:13:20] Speaker A: No. [00:13:21] Speaker B: In other words, he's not someone who like other prophets. [00:13:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:27] Speaker B: Earn money from their activities or are part and parcel of the court structures whereby they give the king their views on things. [00:13:40] Speaker A: That's an interesting correction because it does read like those other prophets in the Bible who do resist the call to that. [00:13:51] Speaker B: Yes. [00:13:51] Speaker A: Yeah, that's actually not what this is. [00:13:53] Speaker B: No. I mean kings in those days are just like government leaders these days. They need to know what the possibilities are in whatever action they about to take. And in their world, so called prophets, seers are the ones who are console or among the ones who are consulted. So he's not sort of damning those people necessarily, but stepping away from us. He is. Especially in this accusation that Amaziah brings. In other words, he's being paid for what he's saying, but he's not. Or he's getting something. [00:14:31] Speaker A: Looking to the end of the passage that for today I'm wondering, could we leave out verse 17 just because. [00:14:37] Speaker B: Well, you don't like the threat about the wife and the. Well, it's rough. [00:14:43] Speaker A: It is rough. It would need to be you. You couldn't read it without addressing it specifically. [00:14:48] Speaker B: No, I don't think. [00:14:52] Speaker A: So. Yeah. What. When you've preached on this, what is been your primary message, Howard? [00:14:59] Speaker B: Oh, dear. [00:15:00] Speaker A: Oh, no. Too big a question. [00:15:02] Speaker B: No, no, no, no. It depends partly on context, but I mean, what I would focus on is his. Partly his convictions in that context. I think that's worth noting. And that sense of calling to something which is, you know, ugly in the end of it, in what he has to say, although it's not far from what happens to the Northern Kingdom in not that many decades following this. And so, you know, I think that that issue of conviction and yet sort of at the same time, although the books aren't written by the prophets themselves, people have put this together later on. I mean, there is that sort of emphasis on hope that does come back at the end, which we cannot ignore. And followers of Amos or whoever put the book together have seen that in his message. It's not to be divorced from the possibility of hope, which comes in the very end of chapter nine. [00:16:03] Speaker A: Yeah, chapter nine, yeah. That was my feeling approaching it, that it can't be preached outside the context of the whole, as is true for any passage, of course. And then, you know, the issues of. Of prophecy and calling power to account and how we live faithfully in the world when we are part of institutions and systems that are worldly and broken, to say the least. And when do we whistle, blow, you know, all those questions are always part of walking the life of faith. And Amos doesn't compromise, as you say, on the cost of that and the difficulty of it and the alienation that. [00:16:50] Speaker B: Can result from it and the opposition that's going to come. [00:16:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:16:56] Speaker B: Whenever the truth is spoken, as we again hear day by day. [00:17:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Indeed. Let's move to Psalm 82. So my Bible has this as a plea for justice. [00:17:13] Speaker B: Plea for justice, yes. [00:17:15] Speaker A: And a psalm of Asaph. [00:17:18] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:18] Speaker A: Can you provide light on that? [00:17:21] Speaker B: Not a lot. [00:17:21] Speaker A: That's okay. So we've got the idea of the divine council here. [00:17:26] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:27] Speaker A: Which is unusual for us. And I want to underline that. Underline that. And the midst of the gods. I'm curious about the plural there. And also that there seems to be a shift between who's speaking and towards the end, I say you are gods. I don't know who the I is anyway. [00:17:45] Speaker B: I think it's God speaking. [00:17:47] Speaker A: It is God there? [00:17:48] Speaker B: Well, I think so, yes. I mean, we've got a very old image here of a divine council. In many of the societies around Israel in. In its history, envisioned a number of gods of Course, and those gods often sat in council to determine things that were important for, for the earth and people, etc. Etc. And there was usually a head God in charge of that. I think they're playing on that image here, the psalmist, and he's got a council of gods going on. But it's Israel's God who sits at the head of that council and as we see, as we move on, sits in judgment on the others who are part of that council. So we've got a bit of a shift going on now. We often think of Israel as being monotheistic. Well, it wasn't for most of its history it was what we would call monolatrous. That is, they worship one God, but that didn't mean that they denied the, the existence or the presence of other gods with other nations. But here I think we've moved to a sort of almost a transitional point where we're moving to a time after they were in exile in Babylon and elsewhere, when they did move towards what we would call monotheism, they recognized that there's only one God. And I think we're sort of in a bit twixt, in between point at this point. And the other thing to notice, interestingly, is the way that these gods are, are dismissed almost. You know, gods are always immortal and if gods were thought to have died in various mythologies, they usually came back and it was connected to agricultural cycles, that sort of thing, okay, life and death of crops and whatever. But here, you know, like mortals, these other gods will die. So it's dismissing that. [00:19:50] Speaker A: I think I'd missed that connection. They have neither knowledge. So the gods, small G have. [00:19:54] Speaker B: They're ignorant actually, which means, you know, they don't know anything. They haven't got the power that gods know gods have, which is in partly in their knowledge. But the thing I think is really nice in connecting back to Amos is verses three and four, the things that determine the nature of gods. According to Israel's theology at this point, giving justice, maintaining the right of the lowly, etc. Rescuing the weak and delivering them from the hand of the wicked. [00:20:25] Speaker A: The other verse that I would draw attention to is the last one. Rise up, O God, judge the earth for all the nations belong to you. So it's the prism is the all the world and all the nations. Which is in fact in Amos as well, in the passage we had. It's not necessarily clear, but Amos does have, you know, all the nations in mind, not just Israel. [00:20:47] Speaker B: So at the beginning especially you see that at the Beginning of it, yeah. Although technically, if you want to examine it, these are probably ones that have had some sort of treaty arrangements or connections with Israel or Judah in that context. So we're not quite at total cosmic sort of level yet. [00:21:10] Speaker A: So obviously, like any. Any week, you could use this psalm liturgically as well. [00:21:15] Speaker B: I've often thought about verses three and four, bringing them in as a refrain, saying the prayers of the people or something like that. [00:21:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that would be very powerful. Okay, shall we move to our Gospel reading, which is Luke chapter 10, verses 25 to 37. Oh, well, this is a challenge. So the so called Good Samaritan, the word good does not appear in the passage, everybody. The challenge to hear it afresh and to my mind hear it not as moralism to go and help everyone, which is a fine thing to do, but you don't actually have to believe in God or be Christian to do that. So careful too. Yeah. How might we read this so that it's theologically a bit more robust, I think, and interesting. [00:22:13] Speaker B: The other thing that one needs to do is make sure you do not divorce it from the. Both the immediate context and the wider context. Not just a parable, the Good Samaritan to be taken on its own. Yes. Because it does have a context and that gives it meaning. [00:22:29] Speaker A: So it's only in Luke. [00:22:32] Speaker B: Yep. [00:22:32] Speaker A: As is also the prodigal son. So there's something. They're paradigmatic parables that we then carry on. [00:22:41] Speaker B: So there are parallels in the other gospel, the questioning by a lawyer or rich man and also that question that comes to Jesus about what shall I do to inherit eternal life? Those are not just connected here. Wider too. [00:23:00] Speaker A: One thing I would want to say is just to remember that for Luke the Gospel is written as an invitation. Well, to encourage. It's a theological hospitality going on at every point in Luke's Gospel. So that the gospel does the genealogy of Jesus going all the way back to Adam, because you can't be more inclusive than that. And geographically begins in Jerusalem and then goes to the ends of the earth, which is Rome. And so repeatedly throughout all the passages or through the whole gospel is that refrain. And so that is clearly in this one as well. So we've got an expert in the law who's trying to trick Jesus. Well, test him. [00:23:51] Speaker B: Yes. What must I do to how he's smarter. [00:23:55] Speaker A: Yes, one. Either one of those things. That's not very honorable. It's going on. What must I do to inherit eternal life? So another big picture thing, I would say at the outset Too, this is, you know, parables always challenge us to think more broadly and widely. Widely. This is a question in the text. We come to the text with our questions all the time. And what the text, what Jesus does in these parables is reject or reframe our questions. And we need to be open to what that shock looks like. And that's a dynamic that this lawyer is about to engage in. [00:24:32] Speaker B: Although he doesn't reframe the question so much as give him an answer that really throws it into. [00:24:39] Speaker A: Well, he turns a noun into a verb, essentially. Who is my neighbour? No, go and be neighbourly. [00:24:45] Speaker B: And he changes the subject of the lawyer's question. [00:24:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is what I'm saying. Noun, verb, that's the point. Yeah. Anyway, so we get the. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul and your strength and with all your mind. And neighbour as yourself. [00:25:02] Speaker B: Yes. Jesus and the lawyer, both typical Jews at this point and which I think is also significant for the parable that follows that we're operating within the Jewish context quite strictly here. [00:25:19] Speaker A: And so he asks a question which is always a little bit dangerous. Well, who is my neighbour? Like what? Where is the law delineating this, you. [00:25:34] Speaker B: Know, that becomes the next. [00:25:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And then the shocking answer. And what would be our equivalent of Samaritan? A Samaritan is someone outside the pale, beyond the pale, outside all righteousness in this context. And so already the lawyer's shocked by that. And I suppose we might think who, what answer might we get to that question that would shock us. [00:25:57] Speaker B: But also I think we've got to note too that the lawyer himself, when he summarizes the law, it's love of God and love of neighbour. And when he comes back and asks but who is my neighbour? He's discarding part of that duality and focusing very much on just one part of it. And in the process objectifying a question of who. He's putting it at a distance. So you gotta recognize what he's doing. [00:26:31] Speaker A: He's putting it at a distance. But he's also asking for an answer that he can then avoid something he doesn't like. [00:26:37] Speaker B: Oh yes, you know, which is why he's doing. [00:26:39] Speaker A: He's objectifying and it's self interest, which self justifying, which the gospel always tells us not to just be self justifying. We don't enjoy hearing that because we prefer law to grace. [00:26:51] Speaker B: Undoes in his answer, in his parable. [00:26:58] Speaker A: So I was. This is a dangerous exercise in after historical critical method. But historically in the tradition. This has been read allegorically, particularly by Origen who goes and gives characters to all parts of this story including the inn being the church and the injured man is Adam and so on. But I think it is interesting to sit with the idea is this Samaritan is Jesus himself and not. This is challenging that thing that we assume in the story that we are the Samaritan, we have this thing to learn. We've always got something to learn. But playing around with the idea are we the wounded traveler who can't get up on our own and require the care, the assistance, you know, and Jesus also being the despised one ultimately as well rejected by both the priest and the Levite in this story and the. [00:28:05] Speaker B: Lawyer asking the question probably yes. [00:28:07] Speaker A: Yeah. So that this becomes learning again about the radical power and grace of God in Christ. And in the literary context of this gospel we will have, we've just heard about the mission of the 70 again symbol of universality or inclusion. And they've gone off to. Gone ahead of Jesus to proclaim who he is. And they, I think the chapter just before this, they say they come back in great joy because they've released demons in his name. So that it's not them doing, it's not about their own efforts and their capacity. Which I think again is, is actually a truth in this parable as it is in the one that follows with Mary and Martha where Martha running around. You know, it's the good portion is the sitting and the listening to God, not the self justifying action that we always try to impose on ourselves. [00:29:06] Speaker B: The connection especially back to the bit before it with the mission of the disciples going out I think also relates back to, to this question. I mean the lawyer summarizes the law correctly as love of God and love of neighbour. It's still sort of faith and works thing that's sitting together and those two things have got to be kept together because that's precisely what the disciples were finding out, that it wasn't them, they were doing it in Jesus name, it was God's power in that context. And so it actually I think invites us not to do what the lawyer is doing, start asking the question who is my neighbour? [00:29:45] Speaker A: And just self justifying and cutting out. [00:29:48] Speaker B: The worship of God in that context. Because I think what this is trying to say, what one might glean from Jesus's parable is love of God and love of neighbour are so intricately bound together, you cannot separate them. And that's partly why I think the Samaritan comes in as I mean you could have had the Samaritan laying on the side of the road and a Jew coming along and Jesus may have made the same sort of point be good to those who are in need but it's no, it's a Samaritan one who's outside of the chosen group according. [00:30:20] Speaker A: To the lawyer and rejected ultimately yeah absolutely. [00:30:24] Speaker B: And who acts in the way that. [00:30:26] Speaker A: God acts because maybe it's Jesus. Okay I think that ties us up for We've said enough I think we can't say everything. We never do. Have you got any final word? [00:30:38] Speaker B: No it's just an interesting. I was thinking before when you were talking about. It's mixing up nicely this question of who is to be helped and who is the helper and you find that those two things sit together. [00:30:53] Speaker A: Thank you for the conversation, Harold. [00:30:54] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:30:58] Speaker A: By the well is brought to you by Pilgrim Theological College and the Uniting Church in Australia. It's produced by Adrian Jackson. Thanks for listening.