Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: You're listening to by the well, a lectionary based podcast for preachers recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri people.
Hello, I'm Robyn Whittaker.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: And I'm Brendan Byrne.
[00:00:19] Speaker A: And this is the episode for the third Sunday after Pentecost, sometimes referred to as Proper 8.
And we're going to be discussing Second Kings, chapter 2, verses 1 to 2 and 6 to 14, Galatians 5:1 and then 13 to 25 and Luke 9, 51, 62 in that order.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: Sounds good.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: So let's get into Second Kings. Brendan, we're here in the. It's really a transition story.
The mantle being passed from Elijah to Elisha. What did you notice about this story? What do you think is good to highlight?
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Well, reading this account, as you say, it's a transition story, but within that account of transition, I was struck by how in many different gospel accounts of events in Jesus life, there are echoes within this text or to this text. And those echoes are a reminder about how we read the texts of the Hebrew scriptures that instead of reading them forward and viewing them as nothing more than kind of presentiments of Jesus, we, in fact, when we read the gospel texts, we need to read backwards into the Hebrew scriptures to, to understand how the gospel writers deliberately tied a. Events in the life of Jesus to the sacred history of Israel.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And to the prophets at many times, and particularly actually in Luke presenting Jesus as a prophet in this tradition.
[00:02:02] Speaker B: Yes, indeed.
And too often we just simply read the prophets as though they were quote, unquote, predicting Jesus.
[00:02:10] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:02:11] Speaker B: You know, when in point of fact the gospel writers tell us how Jesus in many way explains the prophets.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: Yes, yeah, exactly. So that's a helpful. And of course we know the gospel writers will project present John the Baptist in places is presented as a kind of Elijah figure. And, and there's a long tradition associated with this passage. So this is all sort of in the category of background because Elijah was taken up this idea of the, the chariot and taken up to heaven in a whirlwind, as the text talks about.
He's in this legendary kind of tradition, having actually died.
And that gives him a certain, I don't know, these, these myths and legends developed around him. And one of them is that. That Elijah would come back before the Son of Man.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:03:03] Speaker A: And. And so John the Baptist gets, you know.
[00:03:06] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Like you're saying, Brendan, John the Baptist gets portrayed in that way by the gospel writers because he becomes a symbol of the Elijah tradition that precedes Jesus.
[00:03:16] Speaker B: Yes. And of course, Elijah is associated with Jesus and Moses in the transfiguration accounts.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: Exactly. So lots going on here. One of the things that struck me, and we haven't discussed Luke yet, but in the Luke reading we're going to see themes of, you know, the come follow me, I will follow. But yes, here I was struck as a kind of, you know, opposite to that.
We have Elisha, who's taking up this mantle, saying at several points in this story, I will not forsake you, I will not stay back, I will be with you, I will go with you. Just this kind of all in attitude, even when Elijah is actually telling him to stay behind and pray and wait.
[00:04:00] Speaker B: Yeah, but I mean, and of course there's an ironic echo with Peter, who of course says exactly the same thing and then, you know, disowns Jesus.
But I think in this repeated pattern of dialogue, we also have echoes of the Luke reading in as much as Elijah keeps saying to Elisha, look, you know, in effect, you don't understand what it is that you're asking for.
[00:04:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:27] Speaker B: And when you say you follow me and go with me everywhere, etcetera, you don't know. And you're not appreciating the implications that are bound up in that. And so, you know, you have this slightly comical back and forth where Elijah keeps trying to put Elisha off. Yes, but, but underneath that, there's a very serious statement about how the life of faith and discipleship calls us to something that we cannot view through a romantic lens.
You know, and so often we romanticize the life of faith, life of community, etc.
And, and I mean, I, you know, I, I, when I was a theology student, I had the, the privilege of spending a week at the Benedictine monastery in Eunorcia. And, and I remember one of the, the old monks there saying, look, you know, we live in community together and we don't always get on, you know.
[00:05:34] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:05:35] Speaker B: So that people have this romantic idea of, of, you know, retiring to a monastery or whatnot.
And we have a similar thing being played out here.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
I mean, I think this text and the Gospel in particular talk about the costliness of discipleship. Right. Of following Jesus and of inhabiting any kind of ministry role. And I mean that in a broad sense of ministry, which I think is part of the, you know, in the Protestant tradition, that priesthood of all believers, the ministry that we all exercise as Christians here, it's very much a prophetic ministry. And Elisha will, will do the things Elijah did. You know, when that scene just before Elijah's part of the water, Elisha will do that as a. Almost as a symbol that he. This mantle now sits on him.
And in the same way we've seen over the last few weeks in the lectionary in Acts, you know, the apostles embody Jesus ministry.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: But there's a costliness to that.
It's not just the glory, it's also the suffering.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And when Jesus tells them, you know, you are going to drink of the cup that I drink from, you know, he is telling them about some of those difficult realities that are bound up in that prophetic ministry, but just in being a person of faith and belonging to a faith community.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I mean, the other thing I thought if one was to preach this reading, and I mean, we can get very caught up with the Chariots of Fire kind of stuff. And I don't think that's actually the point of the story.
There is something in here for us about the passing of the mantle and how we handle transitions and how we can recognize the gifts of former ministers and leaders in the new.
The new people, even when they might be embodied differently.
And also the way we perhaps tell.
Tell the stories of the past, we. We can often sort of idolize former ministers. No one was ever as good as that person.
But actually, all of us in ministry are passing on the mantle, whether it's to the next generation or the next person called to that place. And so to hold it lightly in a way, so sounds antithetical to talking about the costliness of it, but it's also never entirely ours. It is God's ministry. So absolutely.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: And I mean, our cultural context encourages us to, quote, unquote, take ownership of what we do and who we are and how we identify. And often that means this notion of occupying an office or a position or a ministry to the detriment of that idea of the apostolic succession, of the fact that we are following on from previous generations and in the footsteps of those who followed in the footsteps of Jesus.
[00:08:40] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And I mean, in some of the sort of lower Protestant traditions, we don't have that embodied in. I quite like going to an Anglican or Catholic ordination where hands are placed on. There's very much a sense of, sometimes rigidly we might be critical of it, but of. Of that apostolic succession in the bishop is passing it down to the bishop, passing it down to the bishop, that. That we stand in a line, just like you've said. And here our passage ends. In fact, I would probably keep reading to verse 15 and 16, where Elisha you know, picks up this fallen mantle, then does an act that's exactly like Elijah in striking the water and it parts and it's the other little acolyte prophets. I love this idea that there are little prophets in training every who recognize that now Elijah's spirit rests on him.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. And, and we in, in just that little bit of this text, it, it, it is both, as it were, looking forward and backward. Because of course this is replicating Moses and Aaron.
[00:09:42] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:09:43] Speaker B: You know, but it's, it's always also looking forward in the sense that it's a kind of ascension story of disciples and those who follow being left behind and yet God's presence remaining and acting.
[00:09:58] Speaker A: Yeah, excellent. Should we move on to Galatians 5?
[00:10:02] Speaker B: Let's do.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: So this is the end of Paul's letter to the Galatians, which is a fun one, shall we say?
You know, there's been, it captures a lot of the conflict we know was going on in early Christianity and particularly, particularly the issue of circumcision, which became the big kind of symptom of gentile inclusion. Do gentiles have to be circumcised like Jews to be able to come into this newly forming community of Christ followers?
So in the bit that the lectionary skips, we have a particular reference to the circumcision and that that's everywhere in this letter. And Paul at times uses some pretty strong language to condemn his fellow Jews.
It's probably worth saying from the get go.
We need to remember Paul is writing.
[00:10:57] Speaker B: As a Jew, as a proud Jew who boasted in his adherence to the law.
[00:11:03] Speaker A: Yes, yeah. Earlier in this text, he talks about how basically, you know, I was the best of the Jews. I excelled at, you know, keeping the Torah and learning the law. And.
But we are going to have a bit of an argument through here about freedom and how that relates to the law and then moving towards love, love of neighbor, and then we get to this language of fruits. So there's an awful lot to unpack here. We'll try and do it in just a few minutes.
I want to start with the very. For freedom, Christ has set us free.
There's a lot to unpack. I mean, that right there could be a sermon title. What, what on earth does that mean?
And Paul couples that with therefore, do not again submit to a yoke of slavery or service, which does seem to be implying the law, when rigidly applied in certain ways, is this yoke of slavery. How do you think about freedom? And some of these themes here.
[00:12:02] Speaker B: Well, I think that essentially what. And you're right to point out the context of conflict here, because this is one of those dangerous texts that if we are not aware of the historical and social context that lies underneath this text, then we are in real danger of interpreting it in ways that basically suit our own prejudices and preferences.
And I think that, you know, for freedom, God set us free.
What Paul is telling us is that in the person of Christ, the law is fulfilled and made available to all and we are set free of the requirements of ritual inclusion in order to see each other as God sees us and to love one another in the same way that God loves us unconditionally and without exception and without applying all the distinctions and categories that normally exclude and divide.
[00:13:07] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's a great summary. And, and we skip the controversial bit, so we won't. There's lots to talk about there. But we'll go to verse 13.
He picks up, you were called to freedom. Siblings only do not use your freedom for self indulgence. So I think we see this in Galatians, we see this certainly in First Corinthians, that perhaps in the.
Releasing from the kind of strict rules of the law, particularly around kosher food and circumcision, are two of the big examples in early Christianity that perhaps some Christians had taken that a bit too far and gone, well, what we do doesn't matter.
And Paul is definitely wanting to pull that back and saying, you know, freedom is associated with this love. And we get, in verse 14, him quoting a very Jewish at this time pronouncement that the whole law can be summed up in a single command, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. Which of course is something Jesus himself did in debates in the Gospels and that other Jews agreed with.
[00:14:10] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:14:11] Speaker A: So even though they debated what the law meant and all sorts of other things, it is the point of agreement.
And I think it's really important to remember that Jesus and Paul did not invent love of neighbour.
[00:14:21] Speaker B: No, no, no. Indeed. And indeed, one of the famous Jewish commentators said that the whole of the law is summed up in that idea of loving God and neighbor. And the rest is just commentary.
[00:14:34] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. So we have rabbis writing from, you know, just after this period and reflecting on. On the Torah. And, and this, this is a typical Jewish way of talking about the whole law being summed up as love of one another.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: But, but it's not, it's not unfettered liberty to do as we like. No, it is, it is freedom that is understood as operating in the context of faith in Christ which enables relationship with God and with one another and enables us to see and to love each other as God sees and loves us. So it's not about a kind of individual like individualizing do what you like.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: No, you know, not at all.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you know that famous passage from Augustine, love God and do what you like.
But of course doing what you like is contextualized by love of God.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: That's always the reigning kind of category. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I mean here too there's a famous. If jumping ahead to verse 18 we might come back, but tracing the argument there, there is a phrase in verse 18 about you are not under the law. Now taken out of context, that can look like unfettered freedom. Like oh well, the laws don't matter.
I don't think Paul is a Jew is saying the laws don't matter.
But the first part of that verse is using language of being led, but being led by the spirit. And even this language of being led actually implies a certain kind of yoking, to use a very old fashioned word. It's not if you choose, live by the spirit, it's actually you're submitting to the spirit. So previously you submitted to the law, now you submit to the spirit. So it's a freedom, but in and with the Spirit, not again, this unfettered freedom that has no connection to a wider something.
[00:16:29] Speaker B: I think that's a recognition that genuine freedom only exists in the context of an overarching narrative. Yeah, when there's nothing there, then you're not free, you're actually just astray.
[00:16:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: You know, and yeah, freedom has to operate in the context of story of a narrative, of an over overarching framework that enables it to operate.
[00:16:59] Speaker A: Yep. A set of values or whatever language you want to give that. And here it's deeply relational because it's not. It's about relationship with God through the spirit, but also with one another. So you know, the worst thing we could do with this is, is take this as some sort of endorsement of Western individualism that says I'm free to do what I like and that doesn't matter. In fact, Paul is pressing very much on what you do greatly to others.
And, and yeah, I want to comment too. There's so much here, but this language of flesh, I think it's just worth noting the language.
So when Paul talks about desires of the flesh, he's using a Greek word, sarks, which is a different word to use use for body, which is a Soma word, bodies are good, and bodies, in the Hebrew way of thinking, are spirit, material beings.
Flesh is used really as a fairly derogatory category, but we mustn't interpret it as he's saying our bodies don't matter or our physical needs don't matter, so.
[00:18:03] Speaker B: Absolutely not. And it comes from that Greek philosophical bifurcation of reality into mind and flesh and mind. Or we might equate that with spirit is deemed good and pure and holy. And flesh, the physical reality of the world, is deemed sinful and fallen and tainted. And we see that bifurcation taken to its extreme in certain forms of Gnosticism and in faiths like Manichaeism, which Augustine was a follower of for a while, but which are fundamentally dehumanizing notions.
[00:18:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:46] Speaker B: Because they divide us against ourselves and they lack, as you mentioned, that Hebrew acknowledgment that the body is in fact a physical manifestation of the spirit, of God's creative spirit.
[00:19:03] Speaker A: Yep, I think that's right. And, and we see that in the list of works of this flesh.
I actually thought it could be interesting this Sunday to create your prayers of confession around confessing the works of the flesh.
But. And you know, there's some what sounds like fairly old fashioned language here, but you know, relating to what you've just said, a lot of it is actually about a kind of selfishness that comes from individualism. So there's a lot of mentioning of strife or conflict and jealousy, factions, dissensions, as well as things like drunkenness and what is sometimes translated licentiousness, which is basically like excessive feasting. So gluttony is another word for it for someone who really likes their food and their wine. I try not to take that personally, but it is again, about those things that arrow over indulgence would be at the cost of others.
[00:20:04] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:20:04] Speaker A: In an economy where there is not enough to go around.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: Yes, but, but again, that points to that danger that you mentioned earlier about not understanding the difference between flesh and body.
[00:20:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:19] Speaker B: Because you can read this in a very puritanical way that is both judgmental and obsessed with what other people are getting up to.
[00:20:28] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: And I mean, you know, it's the old saying that a puritan is someone who's tormented by the thought that somewhere someone's enjoying themselves.
And, and so you can reduce this list to a very judgmental, narrow confining to certain kinds of human behavior instead of understanding that what it is about again is that idea of relationship and how we relate to each Other. And how our actions impact on one another.
[00:21:02] Speaker A: Exactly. And when they negatively impact on others. Yes. So this is. And again desires. It's all imperfect translations here. But this is not an anti. Pleasure. It's not saying that God has not given us many good and enjoyable things for our bodies.
[00:21:18] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:21:18] Speaker A: But it is about when they become entirely about us and not at the cost of others. Yeah, exactly.
Fruits of the spirit. Do we want to say anything about that? It's a. It's a familial list that maybe needs to be rescued from its familiarity.
[00:21:35] Speaker B: Yes. I mean, you know, they say familiarity breeds contempt, but it can, it can also breed indifference as well. Precisely because we become so familiar and used to them. But again, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, this list is about the ways in which we facilitate relationship and through relationship, the fullness of human life and what it means to be human.
[00:22:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:03] Speaker B: This is not about moral quote, unquote, purity.
[00:22:08] Speaker A: No. In fact, when we look at the. The fruits of the spirit, they are again very relational about in terms of how we would respond with one another.
You know, things like self control and generosity and kindness and patience. All of those things relate. Like you don't. I mean you can have patience with yourself, but primarily we have to enact patience when we're dealing with someone else who we exactly. Possibly find annoy.
You know, peace and joy. So it is all those kind of values of a community that models that. That you know, attributes of love with one another.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: Exactly. And, and patience is more than just putting up with someone. It's actually being able to forgive ourselves and forgive others for when we do lose.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:22:57] Speaker B: Our temper and when we do, you know, become impatient with each other.
[00:23:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: And being able to recognize that and take a breath as it were and reset the relationship.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
Any last thoughts on this passage? If you were to preach that anything else you'd lean into?
[00:23:16] Speaker B: I think emphasizing the dangers, emphasizing what it is not.
But finish I think as we have done with what it is about and, and emphasizing that connection to relationship and to fullness of human life. Rather than, you know, simply highlighting, you know, what is dangerous or potentially negative in this text, but also seeing this in many ways as a joyous and life fulfilling text.
[00:23:57] Speaker A: Did you know you could join our Facebook group by the well for extra content and discussion?
So the Gospel takes us to Luke, chapter 9, verses 51 to 62. So the end of that chapter.
And where are we? Jesus is on. We're on the journey. We're on the way to Jerusalem and He's been exercising people, he's been teaching, he's been healing.
We're kind of in the middle of the gospel here.
But this passage opens with this idea of him setting his face to Jerusalem, which is a metaphor for kind of walking towards the cross really.
So the cross starts to become a big sort of shadow, I think, at this point.
[00:24:47] Speaker B: Well, we were talking earlier about being led by the spirit. You know that directly implied by. By that phrase.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right, yep.
So, and, and then again, bit of cultural context. On their way, they enter a village of the Samaritans. It doesn't hurt to remember that the Samaritans had a. And Jews had a tense kind of relationship in a way, they're kind of cousins or siblings, but had some very fierce disagreements about the place of the. The, the place of worship in particular and the center. Centrality of Jerusalem. So you've got this irony in the text between he's setting his face to go to Jerusalem, which is actually a large part of the tension, and to do so he goes through Samaria.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:25:38] Speaker A: And that of course would have made sense in the ancient world. We can miss that. And because we know the story of the good Samaritan, we can actually tend to think very positively of Samaritans. But that is not what an ancient reader would have read here.
[00:25:49] Speaker B: No, absolutely not. Which indicates the radicalism of that particular parable.
[00:25:55] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And this language, if they did not receive him, which would have been predictable because he had set his face to Jerusalem. So again, we're in a situation of some sort of conflict.
[00:26:06] Speaker B: And not just, not just conflict in the sense of disagreement, but a centuries old ethnocentric religious, you know, enmity between two peoples.
[00:26:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. A deep. Which might make sense of the disciples question.
Lord, do you want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them? I mean, I don't know whether to laugh or cry or be horrified, but it's a delightful that this is still in the gospel. Right. Someone actually went, we should write down that they asked this question.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, you know, today we might say, can we call in an airstrike or a drone strike or a long range artillery barrage. But you know, in the language of the time, it's fired from heaven.
[00:26:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: Which is, which is both a massive overreaction to, you know, simply being shunned.
[00:27:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:03] Speaker B: But also an incredible escalation of violence as well.
[00:27:07] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. So the response to rejection is to want to rain down violence, which we see in our own world, in everything from state to state action, but even in situations trigger warning here of domestic violence where rejection of some kind can actually lead to a massive response of violence.
So there's something very human about this. And it is worth noting that Jesus rebukes that strongly. The language here is really strong of turning. He. He condemns them. He. He basically says this is completely unacceptable.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: Yes.
And he's not just rebuking them for overreacting, he's rebuking them in the sense of their sense of righteousness.
And he's rebuking this idea of righteous anger that, that we, when we feel properly affronted and wronged, that we are therefore justified and vindicated in enacting violence against others.
Because this is precisely the violence that Jesus himself will suffer.
[00:28:15] Speaker A: Yes, yeah, exactly.
[00:28:18] Speaker B: So this passage is a profound rejection of that idea that we have been wronged and therefore we are justified in not just in retaliating, but in escalating. And whatever we do is. Is justified and sanitized and vindicated by. By our status as quote, unquote, victims.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: Yes, that's a helpful way to put it. And particularly that language of escalating. Because we might read this and go, well, of course I'd never ask someone to rain down fire on my enemies.
But we retaliate and escalate in all sorts of other words ways. Even if it's with our words and kind of character assassinations or, you know, blanking someone or like, there's lots of ways we actually escalate conflict in our communities.
[00:29:07] Speaker B: Well, you know, in the church we talk about car park politicking and you know, I mean, violence is not just a physical action.
[00:29:17] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: You know, violence can be words, violence can be ostracizing. Violence can take any number of forms.
[00:29:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
And of course, if you are going to preach on this part of the Luke passage, because there's, you know, at least two big themes going on in this section of Luke.
There is a nice link here with the fruits of the Spirit. And in fact, what Paul's teaching there embodies a very different way to respond even when rejected. That's right. Even when you're in conflict with someone, there's gentleness, there's self control, there's peacemaking.
[00:29:50] Speaker B: That's right. And there's a recognition of underneath differences there is a fundamental relationship that needs to be preserved and recognized.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And because these people are loved by God too. Even when you think what they teach or say or do is horrific.
[00:30:07] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:30:09] Speaker A: The last bit of Luke, what do we want to say about this following passage?
[00:30:16] Speaker B: Well, I think this actually links back quite nicely to where we began with the Two Kings reading, where you have various people telling Jesus, I'll follow you, I'll do this, I'll do that, but just first let me do this.
And Jesus is rejecting this idea of romanticizing discipleship, romanticizing following, but he's also rejecting the idea that we can be a person of faith and yet still somehow be governed by the conventions and assumptions of our surrounding culture.
[00:30:56] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: So, so Jesus responses which might appear at first glance to be puzzling or even callous, you know, I want to bury my father or I want to say goodbye to my family.
The wider point that is being made here is that to, to be a person of faith, to belong to a community of faith in some real ways, is to be homeless in the world.
Because the gospel critiques all cultures, all, all societies, all ideologies, all economies, all politics from the standpoint of the kingdom of God.
And to do that represents a radical shift in the way that we live in and for the world. Yeah, I mean, this passage is not advocating a cultish retreat into isolation.
No, but it is telling us that if we become disciples, if we become people of faith, if we belong to a community of faith, that radically changes the way that we live in, in the world and for the world.
And, and we cannot think that we can continue, therefore, to suppose that being a person of faith means that we can continue with the assumptions and priorities of our surrounding cultural, social context.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: That's right. And that somehow our entire set of values, which might have implications for work, for our financial arrangements, for our home lives in all sorts of ways, whatever it is, are not reshaped by the kingdom. So that, you know, we think of Jesus often as very nice in Luke's gospel, but he's actually not. He's very demanding. And, and so this is about the demands of following. But as you say, it's not a cult like retreat because in fact, in the very next scene he sends out 70 to go out into the world. So we need to. Again, the context here matters. I think you could have a fun sermon playing with the, you know, I'll follow you, Lord, but.
And what are the buts? We still have that, that hold us back from.
And particularly, I see it particularly around call and vocation.
The amount of people I speak to about call, who are, you know, I think I'm called to ministry, but let me first just go and do this thing. Let me first earn some Money. Let me first, you know.
[00:33:30] Speaker B: Well. Well, I mean, yes.
I mean, look, I do say to people sometimes who are perhaps thinking about ministry that God might have a call on your life, but it might not be right now.
[00:33:45] Speaker A: That's true. Yep.
[00:33:46] Speaker B: You know, so, I mean, and that just is indicative of the fact that we live in that then a now but not yet kind of time.
But I think. And he's had quite a Guernsey in our session today. But you know that famous prayer of Augustine, lord, grant me chastity and continency. But not yet.
[00:34:08] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:34:10] Speaker B: And that's what you have here. You have these people saying, lord, let me follow you. But.
[00:34:14] Speaker A: But not. Not just yet. Let me. Yeah, exactly. And look, there's something very human about that. And also, of course, the call of God in our lives can change and reveal itself in different ways at different times. So this isn't to say you've got to know when you're 20 years old. Like we can genuinely encounter a new call when you're 40 or 50 or 60.
But. Yeah. To get people to think about what's the but holding you back from whatever it is you might feel God calling you to do more of, to do less of, to live into your Christian discipleship.
[00:34:44] Speaker B: And in a way, that but is, in fact, an ironic recognition of the cost of discipleship, and it's people recognizing that and hesitating on the brink.
But Jesus is saying Follow me by.
[00:35:00] Speaker A: The well is brought to you by Pilgrim Theological College and the Uniting Church in Australia. It's produced by Adrian Jackson. Thanks for listening.
